Deep Subtlety: Thread and Spec Necromancy

Apps · 12/05/08, 3:44 AM

Edit: I'll rework this post over the weekend to address the new stuff; meanwhile, just skip to the last few pages. Everything before that's for old, >1cp/sec HAT.

TraumaSK · 12/05/08, 5:43 AM

I tried out a HAT spec today as well. We did a 10 man Naxx with a druid tank and no other melee buffs aside from the 5% crit, so damage potential was actually alot lower then it would have been if there were to be a warrior sundering or any form of melee haste. I stacked my group with an ele shammy, hunter, and 2 mages. The combo point generation was ridiculous after about 5 or 10 seconds into the fight. Very sporadic at points like the OP mentioned, but I believe this may be "somewhat" leveled out in a 25 man raid with more potential buffs. My overall dps was pretty low due to not fully understanding the build or having any set rotation, but I believe that with practice and knowing what to look for and when is going to be key in this build, and frankly I did not know my head from my ass walking into 10 man naxx with this build. Build during raid: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

From my findings and experiences(limited as they may be), the potential dps of this build is absolutely insane. It does require alot of attention towards your energy bar..probably more so then usual for combat/assassination rogues. I found myself out of energy with 5 combo points many times throughout the night, and I would just sit there auto attacking waiting for energy to go back up. Not having the increased energy regen from vitality or focused attacks really can put a hampering on dps if you don't spend your energy wisely. So as Apps said it's very important to not get ahead of yourself and end up without any energy left to spend on finishers.

As for weapon choices I was running [Calamity's Grasp] [Omen of Ruin]. Wound/Deadly. Although, with the amount of finishers I was throwing out, and the general lack of using Hemo, it may be more advisable to do more of a mutilate setup with two fast daggers and Wound/Wound.

For those who haven't seen the potential dps that this build can throw out, check out this wws. Wow Web Stats

The other talents and abilities the HAT spec entails are things like Vanish for master of subtlety, and shadowstep for the increased damage on next attack. As for how those are used, my guess is that it's Vanish>ShS>Garrote. Or at least that's how it jumped out at me initially. With prep that combo is/could be used a few times throughout the fight.(Could be wrong on how these tools are used though.)

My foresight tells me this is one of those builds thats going to improve leaps and bounds as gearing improves overall and things like crit, hit, and group composition become more consistent. I'll try this out again next week for 25 man raids and try to report on any findings or changes that I see in 25 man raiding. I'm sure it'll only get better.

Nerevarine · 12/05/08, 5:51 AM

I tried it last night, just for fun

It was pretty interesting play but i must say i completely destroyed the power of this Build, tired from work + laggy server. The main point i realized is, as you stated always have enough energy call a finisher, sometimes i had to wait for about 4-5s because of no energy + kick was needed :/ And also it is not the Build to play with more then 500ms =)

Wow Web Stats anyways but not a very talented play :/

Kumar · 12/05/08, 6:26 AM

The problem with studying HaT builds right now specifically is that some rogue players are reporting that with two HaT rogues in the group, you get two CPs per crit instead of just one, which would be a bug and a big one at that.

Apps · 12/05/08, 6:42 AM

Right, but that doesn't mean you can't study parses and builds without having two HAT rogues in the group.

Still, if people could at least have a parse, their group makeup, and their build of the time when posting about the spec, it would be far more helpful than a rough description or a standalone parse.

Nerevarine · 12/05/08, 6:46 AM

which would explain the huge amount of finishers pimpy does. Under 4s for Evi alone not counting SnD and Rupture Finishers

mostlikely · 12/05/08, 7:49 AM

I've been playing with this too.. having to use abilities reactively sure is refreshing after years of combat.

I was wondering since combo points can come in such bursts.. how viable is it to do 4pt or even 2-3pt finishers?
Sitting on 2 combo points waiting for more with the chance of capping and losing points in a short burst feels like a worse option then wasting some energy.

Also it often felt like combo point generation stagnated until I was forced to do a *hemorrhage* (edit from: mutilate) after which I got a burst of combo points.
Often it felt like Hat only worked after I had 1 combo point, but it could have been the laggy server.. anyone else experience this?

Apps · 12/05/08, 8:03 AM

Originally Posted by mostlikely

Also it often felt like combo point generation stagnated until I was forced to do a mutilate after which I got a burst of combo points.
Often it felt like Hat only worked after I had 1 combo point, but it could have been the laggy server.. anyone else experience this?

So, out of curiosity, how DID you get the 84 talent points to have mutilate and honour among thieves?

Tinbum · 12/05/08, 8:08 AM

Originally Posted by Apps

So, out of curiosity, how DID you get the 84 talent points to have mutilate and honour among thieves?

That's a build I'd like to try...

koaschten · 12/05/08, 8:41 AM

Originally Posted by Apps

So, out of curiosity, how DID you get the 84 talent points to have mutilate and honour among thieves?

He obviously is lvl90 already. But this is offtopic here.

On the topic of when to use a finisher, i dare saying, pool energy and

- if cp < 3 and energy > 90 -> hemo
- if cp >=4 and energy > 80 -> finisher
- if cp < 4 and energy < 40 -> pool energy

you get the idea. Dont waste CP, but neither energy.

mostlikely · 12/05/08, 8:42 AM

Originally Posted by Apps

So, out of curiosity, how DID you get the 84 talent points to have mutilate and honour among thieves?

Sorry..

.. I keep confusing hemorrhage and mutilate.. I meant the former naturally...
My talent build is 6/21/44

Sorry for the confusion.

Faylinn · 12/05/08, 9:12 AM

Originally Posted by Kumar

The problem with studying HaT builds right now specifically is that some rogue players are reporting that with two HaT rogues in the group, you get two CPs per crit instead of just one, which would be a bug and a big one at that.

As far as we know HaT is "working as intended".

Originally Posted by Nerevarine

which would explain the huge amount of finishers pimpy does. Under 4s for Evi alone not counting SnD and Rupture Finishers

Wow Web Stats

As you can see it's more or less an Eviscerate every global cooldown. So don't forget to refresh SnD while smashing that one button.

01:49'39.468 Pimpy Eviscerate hits Patchwerk for 10330 Physical. (Critical) 
01:49'40.812 Pimpy Eviscerate hits Patchwerk for 10436 Physical. (Critical) 
01:49'41.531 Pimpy Eviscerate hits Patchwerk for 10319 Physical. (Critical) 
01:49'42.796 Pimpy Eviscerate hits Patchwerk for 9896 Physical. (Critical)

/edit: Ok, now i understand the possible bug Kumar was talking about.

Sarah · 12/05/08, 9:32 AM

Having seen Pimpy's report, I find this one a bit more imppressive:

Wow Web Stats

Excuse the speculations, but could it be that with 3 HAT rogues in a group, everyone gets 3 combopoints on a crit?

Tinwhisker · 12/05/08, 9:41 AM

Originally Posted by Sarah

Excuse the speculations, but could it be that with 3 HAT rogues in a group, everyone gets 3 combopoints on a crit?

Apparently so.

"Buggy" Rogue Mechanics?

12/05/08, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Tinwhisker

Apparently so.

"Buggy" Rogue Mechanics?

I'm praying it's not a bug and actually working as intended. IT seems incredibly OP at face value but it is called Honor Among Thieves. Rogues = Thieves.