Yes he does......so that 3% owns me by that much when i execute almost 100 more eviscerate than him? =/

Not necessarily the answer, but it's certainly something to factor into the equation.

There's your answer - he not missing, being dodged, parried or glanced near as often as you I'm sure - on some fights I've taken off my meteorite and equipped the sphere just for the hit.

That little extra number of misses can be the difference in entire percentages of damage over the course of a 5-10 minute boss fight.

That won't make a difference for Evis. They're above the yellow hit cap. I think at least. What were the specs exactly? And glyphs?

Just not a lot of info to go on to give a def answer, too many variables.

Sorry i didn't do a WWS, it was almost a week ago.

My spec is 7/21/43 i have a point on blade flurry
His spec is the same as mine but 1 more point on malice than me

But that shouldn't be the problem here i have more crit % than him.

Glyphs i have Eviscerate, Rupture, and Hemorr. Not sure what glyphs he use.

Not sure if is the hit rate thats causing it...and i don't have a meta gem on.

Meta gem is certainly a factor. Having more crit that him on paper could just mean by luck it went the other way. Hit shouldn't really matter much if all you're showing is just the Evis damage. And assuming you just spat out the end number for the whole night, maybe he got more luck on fights like Thaddius and Loatheb. Bring a WWS/combat log next time if you want deeper analysis.

Gonna try HAT tonight for 25 man Naxx and was wondering what would be my best weapons to slot. I have Twlight Mist, Librarian's Paper Cutter, Greed, and Hailstorm? Thanks

Weapons are a total balance/feel type thing IMO. You want to balance fast weapons with stats. For me... I didn't go the route of the paper cutters because I had [Murder] and [The Hand of Nerub]. Yes my two Weapons are slower... thus less poison procs, but the stats were far better.

There's really no good way to model this spec being that it's so group dependant and glitched. Some rogues will use a slow MH fist if they have no other Hat rogues because they will have to either SS between eviscerates. In a group with 2 or more HaT rogues, I use fast weapons. Can't go wrong with two [Librarian's Paper Cutter] though. [Twilight Mist] is a little slow for my taste if you are grouped with another HaT rogue. With what you have... i'd do this.

Only HaT rogue - MH [Greed] OH [Librarian's Paper Cutter]

2 or more HaT rogues in group - MH and OH [Librarian's Paper Cutter]

If you don't have access to a 2nd paper cutter, use the [Twilight Mist] in your MH. This might actually be better since it's damage is far better and it's stats are as well. 1.8 speed is the only thing I don't like.

Use LPC and Hailstorm , WP LPC , deadly or wound for hailstorm, Hailstorm in MH , LPC offhand and shiv as CP builder.

....

Or you could MH a slow weapon and use Backstab/Hemo...

I realize that HaT is a bizzare spec where alot of rules dont apply, but I believe shiv'ing for CP's is fail for any spec..

Slow weapons in HaT = fail , the faster the better.

Of course you can use backstab as cp builder too, it just tends too eat energy in too big chunks. You might end with one or two less eviscerates and this eats your output too much.

You dont have imp SS in this build, so SS costs 45 energy as well, also a bit too much.

Hemo is nicer but needs to get 1 talent point invested (which you can place into much more usable slot, not to mention that noone cares about your hemo debuff :P)

That pretty much leaves shiv, with 1.3 speed it's 33 energy or so, gives some weapon damage and poison damage as well.

Of course, once the motor is running and cp's are flowing in, you start searching for places to put energy in, but using anything other than Evi,SnD or Rupture (and even the last is questionable) while having 4+ CP is waste in HaT. So the main reason to use some other attack is to build up CP not to convert energy to damage.

Simply put, it doesn't matter much which CP builder you use as HAT (as long as it isn't Backstab, anyway), but Faster/Fast is definitely the optimal weapon configuration. Hemorrhage and Shiv should have about the same energy cost and Shiv would refresh your DP stack/apply Wound, but you lose on the raid damage gained by using Hemorrhage. My (granted, anecdotal) experience says Hemorrhage will usually be the best choice, but in the end, it doesn't really matter because it's usually better to just Eviscerate at 2+ CPs.

Wait, so are you saying that I shouldn't be waiting for 4-5CPs? And just going for 2+?

Yes.

Since you will have Relentless Strikes, Eviscerate glyph and HAT itself, every Eviscerate has 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy, and every Eviscerate crit is another combo point. Using very rough numbers, such as 5000 Attack Power, your Eviscerate non-crit would hit for 2287~ before armor, and an Hemorrhage would hit for 950 (using Webbed Death), plus 750 raid damage. If you use a 4CP Eviscerate, it would hit for 4231~. As you can see, using two 2CP Eviscerate is 4574 damage, versus 4231 damage for a 4CP Eviscerate, and your two 2CP Eviscerate have higher chances to crit, as you use two attacks instead of one.

If I'm not mistaken, the AP multiplier applied to fist weapons is 50% higher than daggers (2.3 vs 1.7?) which would answer NSX's question.

Also, more WWS posts and less opinion/speculation in this thread PLEASE.

AP normalization only applies to abilities that do a percentage of weapon damage, like Sinister Strike or Hemorrhage. Eviscerate is not based on weapon damage at all and has its own AP multiplier that does not change based on which weapons you have equipped.

Just got done doing 25man naxx, full clear.

WWS Ignore the malygos kill, I logged in late and from what I heard it went terribly. Also I sucked it up on sapph and kel, I know.

I've been running wp/wp. Atook was running wp/deadly, they seem to be about equal.

Group makeup we've been running is 3 HAT rogues and 2 BM hunters, which has yielded some pretty good results.

to Neto -If you are able to evisc at 2 combo points then you do not have the proper group makeup imo. Not to mention you will run out of energy this way unless you get extremely lucky on relentless procs.

You will run out of energy really fast by doing 2CP Eviscerates.

Using a 2CP Eviscerate, however, will cost you less energy than a Hemorrhage. I'm not saying you should spam 2CP Eviscerates until you run out of energy, but given the spec's randomness, depending on your group, it *might* be the best choice. 2CP is 40% chance of getting 25 energy back, or 10 energy effectively - thus, your effective 2CP Eviscerate cost is 25 energy. A glyphed Eviscerate should have 50~% crit chance, so you're looking at 25 energy cost for 1.1 CPs with Ruthlessness (you should have it when playing HAT without the bug), whereas the Hemorrhage would be 35 energy for 1.4 CP.

The difference isn't exactly huge, but simply put, using a 2CP Eviscerate does more damage than a Hemorrhage, costs 10 less energy, and only gives you 0.3 less CPs. Using two 2CP Eviscerates is more damage than a 4CP Eviscerate, but with two 2CP Eviscerate you have two shots at 1.1 CPs, or 2.2 CPs, and a 4CP Eviscerate has an effective cost of 15, which is less than 50 for sure, but you only get 1.1 CPs. There's a 75% chance that you score a crit with two 2CP Eviscerates at 50% glyphed crit chance, and a 50% chance to score a crit with a 4CP Eviscerate with 50% glyphed chance. The only factor where it loses is energy, so, with smart management of energy (I never suggested you should be emptying your energy bar, just that using Eviscerate might be better than a CP builder), you'd want to stay near the energy cap, but use Eviscerate every time you're too close (90+). If you had to Hemorrhage in order to get to a 4CP Eviscerate, the effective cost ramps up to 50, which is, again, the same as two 2CP Eviscerates. Of course, you also gain the damage of an Hemorrhage, but GCD-wise, that'd be impossible to figure out which one is a better use of GCDs, since you'd need to gain 2CPs from your group and crit your own Hemorrhage to get 4CPs and Eviscerate in the same time frame you could Eviscerate twice at 2CP.

As HAT it is pretty much impossible to figure out things and set it in stone, as everything revolves around your group, but if your only limitation is energy and you're near capped, you'd want to Eviscerate, even if at 2CP.

I tried what Neto said last night, and its true. 2CP > Hemo.

I've been doing a slew of test runs without any other HaT rogues, and the DPS is horrid. As should be expected, but what this means at the end of the day is that if they ever get around to fixing HaT, it will not be viable in my opinion. Having to generate your own CPs just drains you of too much energy to Evis spam. From what I can tell, Backstab seems to be yielding me better DPS than Hemo, overall. However, it does leave me Energy starved, and unable to Evis sometimes, thereby wasting free CPs when at 5.

Heres naxx25 parse: Wow Web Stats

Heres maly25: Wow Web Stats

The naxx parse has me solo rogue throughout most of the evening with exception of the last 3 bosses. The Malygos parse is me and a Mut Rogue running side by side from beginning to end. Malygos Death didnt parse correctly, try 11 was kill.

So let me get this straight - going from combat to HaT and taking almost a 20% DPS cut is a good thing?

Please lets not misguide people - I see recommendations of using slow weapons and using shiv to keep up dp, alongside there are recommendations of using swords.

I have experimented with this spec with a variety of weapons and I'm now hitting 7000-8000 dps on non dps buff fights (I once sustained 8900 dps on sartharion for 2 mins before i was forced to move to kill adds).

I do believe I can share some information that would help most of us do well if they want to use this spec.

Weapons & Poisons
1. Swords are an absolute folly since you cannot have sword spec (not to mention the sword itemization in wotlk is poor)
2. Daggers and fists are your only choice since you have CQC.
3. Only 5-8% of your damage comes from hemo (or bs/ss) in this spec, moreover slower weapons crit less often making slow weapons such as mainhand fists redundant for this spec

This makes fast daggers your best choice

I use sinister revenge (1.8) and webbed death (1.4). Wound poison is applied to both weapons. If I had a faster weapon than sinister revenge, I would use it. Right now raid buffed my weapon speeds approach 1.29 or so on mainhand.

Your damage breakup is generally as follows:
Poisons ~ 20%
Melee ~ 35%
Evis ~ 35-40%
Hemo ~ 5-10%

Skills to be used
Keep SND and Expose armor up (only one rogue should keep up expose)

Evis till SND is almost finished then SND up again

Hemo if your combo point stack isn't updated and ur energy > 90 (sometimes the CP generation messes up and u need to hemo once to get it going again)

I do not use rupture since it adds another counter I need to keep track of (I am raid leader so I am busy watching everyone's performance).

Group Composition
In my experience this works sweetly with 4 or more rogues (6k+ dps), with 3 rogues its ok (4k dps) and with 2 rogues its sub optimal (3k dps).

For comparison purposes the lowest dps in our raids is usually an ele shaman who is doing 3.3k dps, we like to still keep him coz he keeps much needed totems for the group and keeps the casters from crying about buffs.

Good luck.