moreover slower weapons crit less often making slow weapons such as mainhand fists redundant for this spec
No, the amount of crits overtime may be less on slow weapons, the percentage of crits will be identical, the percentage of crit damage within your white damage is therefor also identical. Within a given timeframe, a critrate X with DPS Y will give the same amount of critdamage for any given weaponspeed.
Your white hits do not count towards HaT, only the crits on your abilities do, which have the exact same applicationrate, no matter the speed of your weapon. It's basically limited by your global cooldowns and energy regen.
The sole reason to take fast weapons over slow ones is the amount of poison procs. With fast weapons, the amount of poison procs within a given timeframe, which is flat damage per proc, no matter your weapon speed, is substantially higher than with slow weapons. Hence the ideas that have been floating around for normalizing poison damage, or even implementing PPM mechanics to poisons.
I apologize if this is the kind of thread that drives people crazy, but I'm at my wit's end.
I've played for a year, and have been a combat rogue the entire time. I specced Combat Swords to some success in 10 mans, but recently acquired an epic dagger and was interested in trying out mutilate or HaT specs.
I'm being a little impatient, but in my first two attempts at mutilate and HaT, I was just underwhelmed. As Combat wielding Greed MH (Wound) / and The Fleshshaper OH (Deadly) I was pulling a good solid 2k plus on bosses and had a very stable cycle for combat.
In a 25 man raid, my HaT experience started out well, but quickly spun out of control. I got CP so fast I never had enough energy to do anything but Evisc and I couldn't get Hemo to stay up long enough to do it. I played around with dagger/dagger backstab CP builders, Fist/Sword SS CP builders, Fist/Dagger SS CP builders, etc, but I can't tell a clear difference because the dmg comes so fast and erratic.
tl;dr Im looking for an idiots guide to hat spec, weapons, cycles, poisons, you name it. When it comes to Hat, Hemo or even Mut specs, I am completely clueless and it is pissing me off.
I believe you won't find your "idiot's guide" because currently there is no one. Everything we know is shared in this thread and it's a lot of theorycrafting and not many WWS reports. Additionally, Hat is bugged and it's heavily dependant on the gear of your guildmates, so it's not easy to make hypotheses about it yet. You can wait on it a bit more, or you can try to do some testings yourself.
tl;dr Im looking for an idiots guide to hat spec, weapons, cycles, poisons, you name it. When it comes to Hat, Hemo or even Mut specs, I am completely clueless and it is pissing me off.
The closest you'll come to a rotation with HaT is that when you've got more than one (i.e., abusing the bug), you keep up SnD (and I forget whether rupture is efficient enough to warrant usage - don't believe so) and then Evisc as often as possible. Your combo points come so quickly that with Relentless Strikes you can cast one Eviscerate every second for as long as the fight goes (this leads to some of the insane parses being tossed around that show rogues doing chains of 10 and 11k crits). With a good group setup, you never end up using combo point builders in the first place - another party member's crits (BM hunters and enhancement shamans work well), and the crit Eviscerates from the HaT rogues in your group are your combo point builders. Hemo is useful when your combo points come too slowly.
Weapons and poisons are a bit more complex, but not by much. The speed of your weapons matters - you want faster weapons for more poison procs, since white dps (and Hemo, ideally) account for so little of your damage. Ideal setup is faster weapon MH, slower weapon OH (this doesn't mean say, 1.4 mainhand and 2.6 offhand - more like, in the choice between 1.4 and 1.5, put the 1.4 dagger mainhand) and put Wound poison on your main hand, deadly on your off. Because finishers use the mainhand to determine poison application (and ideally you'll be using a finisher every second or so), the point of this is to maximize the number of poison applications you get.
Neto/Ippon/Vula/Chalon/Aldriana can probably post a more complete/in-depth answer to your question, but that's what I've garnered from following this and playing HaT in raids.
This thread isn't exactly a monster in length yet so most of the information has already been mentioned. Just read it. You don't want to hemo to "keep it up." Keep Slice up, Rupture (debated) up, and Eviscerate. It's a DPS spec not a raid hybrid buff providing one.
Yes. The math's been done in other threads, and with 0/5 imp poisons it'd take an astronomical amount of AP to make the higher coefficient on IP better than the increased proc rate on WP.
Yes. The math's been done in other threads, and with 0/5 imp poisons it'd take an astronomical amount of AP to make the higher coefficient on IP better than the increased proc rate on WP.
Actually, both instant poison and Wound poison scale exactly the same from what i've seen.
Even at high AP, wound poison would still have higher dps than instant poison.
Base @ 0 AP
* IP : 300 / 5 = 60
* WP : 231 / 2 = 115,5
Diff : 55,5
Actually, both instant poison and Wound poison scale exactly the same from what i've seen.
Even at high AP, wound poison would still have higher dps than instant poison.
You're not taking into account Improved poisons, which is the entire point of what I said. 5/5 improved poisons changes that to a 30% proc rate for instant poison (which scales better with AP), and thus lowers the crossover point down to (if I'm remembering the right numbers) somewhere around 1000ap.
Curious, you are indeed right. (Math below)
I must have been calculating the extra 10% proc-rate into the flat DPS like I was doing for vile poisons initially.
The crossover would be at around ~2250-2500 AP. A value most rogues should easily be able to reach unbuffed.
Spec-wise however, neither combat or HaT rogues are likely to go that deep into assassination. Or wouldn't take the talent over Vile poisons. For mutilate it definitely pays off though.
Base @ 0 AP
* IP : 300 / 5 = 60
* IP (5/5 imp) : 300 / 3.33 = 90,09
* WP : 231 / 2 = 115,5
Diff : -55,5 unimp
Diff : -25,41 imp 5/5
This seems to come up time to time. Your values are actually wrong because you are not aware that Instant Poison's tooltip is incorrect. It deals 300-400 damage (350 on average), not a constant 300 always. Therefore the proper values are those that I listed in this post.
I'm in a guild with two other rogues who won't use HaT due to it being an exploit, it only being good while bugged, etc etc and so on. I liked the feel of the spec so have been testing it against Combat to see which I prefer.
Bageler - Mutilate
Dialup - Combat
Twin - Combat / Unsupported HaT (depending on the WWS)
Last week I got data from the front-half of Naxx using a 15/51/5 Combat spec with Silent Crusader MH / Hailstorm OH, Glyphs of Adrenaline Rush, Slice n' Dice, and Sinister Strike.
This week's data is 8/20/43 unsupported HaT (full improved evisc + mutilate, probably not the best spec). I used Silent Crusader MH / Hailstorm OH again despite not having a sword specialization - I wanted to keep the comparisons as close as I could. Re-glyphed for SnD, Hemo, and Eviscerate.
HaT group composition notes: My party for Patchwerk had me with Narrth (fury war), Dojin (undergeared affliction warlock), Lasker (enh shaman), and Colddevil (ret pally).
Quick results: Unsupported HaT put out 97% of my Combat spec’s output on Patchwerk. (My total output was within 20k damage; two ruptures or crit eviscerates could have made that up.) This leads me to believe unsupported HaT can be competitive at the very least.
Other data: Unsupported HaT beat my Combat output on Anub and Gluth. I also delivered significantly higher output on our Thaddius kill this week compared to any of last week’s Combat attempts (6.2k vs 4k average).
Caveats:
Spec.
My HaT setup definitely wasn't optimal for my weapon set.
Party composition.
Our Aff Warlock wasn't right for what we were doing. Also, Cold was used as an off-tank on Patchwerk and died halfway through the fight, limiting cp generation. (That's the way the cookie crumbles.) Better group setup would yield higher numbers.
Spec familiarity.
I’ve played Combat since TBC and raided extensively; keeping my rotation is easy. HaT relies on a good group mix and random chance; so much is outside your immediate control that it’s hard to guarantee what's happening when. I'm not as good at maximizing HaT as I am Combat.
Gear.
My weapons, armor, and enchants were the same for these runs. The problem with this is that my weapons consisted of Silent Crusader MH / Hailstorm OH (both with Mongoose). This is a nice set of Swords for Combat but doesn't fly so well for HaT (particularly with CQC being lost). I didn't want to invalidate the spec comparison by changing too many things, though.
Last night I picked up Calamity's Grasp and Murder, so I'll be using a new weapon set when next I collect HaT data.
I am rather surprised Combat vs. unsupported HaT is still even an argument. Actually, really surprised.
I don't have a WWS but 4800 dps is what I got the other night when our guild did patch.
My party was combat rogue/combat rogue/ret/dk, a decent HaT group but by no means optimal.
I think 5500-6000 would have been an easy number if I had a good HaT group, if I was actually specced correctly (I dropped some points to get cheat death cuz we wanted to get the Immortal title.. I also like to drop a point to get ShS, so I'm running with 1% less crit), or if I used optimal enchants instead of PvP ones (lol nitro boosts), or if I had optimal HaT weapons. Not to mention I have bad HaT gear (a lot of haste and very little expertise). I would consider gemming for expertise to fix that except that my pve gear = my pvp gear and I don't want so much expertise in pvp
The similarly geared combat rogues I ran with were down around 3700 and 4000 on this particular kill. Obviously this is purely anecdotal (I'll try to remember to WWS next week), but if you are pooling energy correctly (common mistake that I made when I first began HaT was to use hemo too much) and have a group that is even halfway decent for HaT I just don't see combat being close to HaT. P.S. - almost forgot we had no imp FF or misery on the target.
All that being said, I think it's worth mentioning that not all Patchwerk's are one in the same. To compare Patchwerk DPS between different kills they should probably be close to the same duration, for starters. A shorter patchwerk kill means bigger % uptime of bloodlust and cooldowns.
A couple other things I figure I'd throw out to the people who are not ready to respec HaT just yet -
a) besides beating combat on bosses, HaT destroys combat on trash. This will swing a bit with the removed cd on FoK due to vitality. Possibly in combat's favor.. but I'm not sure. Hitting 2 targets with 5 pt evis's several times during a blade flurry will still be hard to beat. And if you're in the 'don't rupture' camp you can have prep glyph instead of rupture glyph for 2x Blade Flurry.
b) HaT has better survival than combat d/t prep, and better mobility if you opt for shs. On stuff like Anub'Rekan (srs fight I know) you can immediately shs back down to him when impale knocks everyone up in the air. High dps time ftw.
c) not PvE related but you can actually PvP pretty effectively as 6/21/44. Good for painless honor grinds instead of painful ones w/ combat.
I don't know if anyone is interested... or if anyone has already made a spreadsheet... but I am designing a spreadsheet to help HAT rogues optimize their DPS through talents, gear selection and combat cycles. It will not be anything fancy in the least... I'm not that good with excel.
The spreadsheet will not be accurate within an infinitesimal margin of error (because I don't think I'm that hot or versed in knowing every little detail I need to compose all the formulas necessary to be 99.9% accurate). I will be using average time to build 5 CPs instead of trying to figure out the crit rates/hits in a dynamic (as in never the same on any given night) raid environment. I do believe it will be a great tool for HAT rogues post bug fix. I am almost finished w/the spreadsheet and it will probably need a little retooling - its been a while since I made a rogue DPS spreadsheet (well since I first found one here a couple years ago LOL).
Anyhow, I'm just wondering if anyone else is working on a similar spreadsheet? If so, then I can just keep mine to myself >.>
i've just got a few finishing touches to work on that shouldn't take too long. i normally tinker with it at work though so i dunno if i'll do anything else till monday
but i will loose the "Reduce 5% energy cost" on my eviscerates spam. That' really matter on this kind of rotation? should i got to the best gear and ignore the bonus or not?
but i will loose the "Reduce 5% energy cost" on my eviscerates spam. That' really matter on this kind of rotation? should i got to the best gear and ignore the bonus or not?
Regards,
Obeah.
Read the tooltip again.
4-piece is worthless as bugged HAT, and underpowered/not worth it as SHAT.
but i will loose the "Reduce 5% energy cost" on my eviscerates spam. That' really matter on this kind of rotation? should i got to the best gear and ignore the bonus or not?
Regards,
Obeah.
Eviscerate is a Finishing Move, not a Combo move. A combo move are the ones that award you the points. And finishers are moves that uses them.
So the tier bonus is useless.
Havent raided properly in wotlk untill yesterday on my first guild 25naxx. We are 3 rogues always deciding speccs right before raiding. (will be 100% hat untill fix)
Altho its by far the cheesiest type of raiding i ever did, i enjoyed being topdmg when im wearing lvl 70 sunwellepics + lvl80pvp epics and some few token parts.
If u go HAT u want to make sure the others in the group do so aswell to benefit the most from it. The results speak better for themselves than i ever could so check here Wow Web Stats
With my gear (picked up 7 new items for pve yesterday so alot better now) i still did over 8k on Thad. Managed to top on patchwerk even tho 1 rogue died, and another disconnected, resorted in a rly bad combopoint generation but was still enough to top.
I cannot get the hat bug to work for me with any combination of race rogues as the same spec. I'm cursed to solo hat, though that is easilly top 3 and usually first.
I thought Eviscerate's damage doesn't matter what weapons you use the damage should be the same if I'm correct
But the meter is telling me something, I executed 570 Eviscerate and He did 483 and his Eviscerate's damage is higher than mine.....so I don't get why. Please help me out here =)
It's hard to say without knowing the fight. On Thaddius it would be pretty easy for a rogue playing the charge stacks correctly to demolish a rogue with better gear, but who evisc's during a polarity shift, thus having no dmg buff.
I will be back to post my recent wws. Lag was not bad really in Naxx today so I'll post when our guy post em. Also to comment on the comparing dps on Thad. I dont see that as a good fight to gauge dps on. Without lag me and other rogue did just over 10k. which is retarded, I would say patchwerk is your best bet in comparing and going over Hat dps in general.
With the Bug currently im doing about 2-3k more dps on patch alone than I was when playing as Mute. Though I think raiding as HaT is boring and just not fun, but if you want to maintain a high dps and be able to stay on top of metters HaT is the only way to go atm.
12/25/08, 3:02 PM
Similar Threads
