Considering I will use DP/WP, is it OK to use a high DPS slow fist in main hand? It seems the lower proc is still enough to keep 5 stacks of DP ticking throughout the entire boss fight. Do you think I will be gimped compared to having a fast dagger in MH?
I would like to sum some things up and figure out few things for myself so correct me please if i am wrong.
Talking about boss fights here.
Group setup:
Anything that has a pet is generally good.
1. Hunters
2. FG warlocks
3. DKs
4. Then its probably TG warriors, arcane mages (though they are all frostfire now) and rogues.
Poisons:
1. WP+DP is better if you have 2 more or less fast daggers. Slower dagger in the oh.
2. WP+WP is better if you have 2x webbed death only.
3. DP+WP is better if you are using smth like Grasp in the mh.
^^ Which one of those 3 will give most dps aprox.?
Spec and rotation:
General question here is what spec+rotation is considered superior atm?
There i have only questions pretty much, would be great if someone could clear few things up for me:
1. Ruthlessness 3/3 or no Ruthlessness 3/3? (my group usually isnt brilliant so "if you get flooded with cps" is prolly not the case for me and extra cps wont hurt)
2. My guess is Ruthlessness. So that leaves me with no imp Rupture and no BF. Do i include rupture in my cycle then or not?
3. If no Ruthlessness 3/3 then should i pick imp Rupture and use it with maximum uptime in my rotation?
4. Imp SnD vs 5/5 Precision. Would imp SnD be better (so i can toss more evises while its up) if i can get poison hit caped with 3/5 Precision with my gear?
I've been very happy using this spec but I've considered taking two points out of Cheat Death, one from Imp SnD and putting them into Malice. Blade Fury is amazing for anything with two baddies, and still very good when you're just on a boss.
My rule for playing it is simple. Keep SnD up. Use Hemo when the buff isn't up, you can spare the energy, and you won't flood yourself with combo points. Shadowstep whenever it's up and you're about to do a 5cp Evis. Even better is to Vanish -- Shadowstep for that extra 10% damage which can bring a 9k crit to 10k.
Also, I've found it very useful to hit SnD usually when I'm sitting around with two or three CPs and no more coming in, rather than hitting Hemo and risking some overkill.
I frankly just forget to use rupture most of the time, but it doesn't seem like it would be all that great when you can use Evis or refresh SnD.
Is there any disadvantage to having 2 HaT rogues in the same party since 3.0.8? I've heard rumours that only one rogue gets the advantages of HaT now, but this may not be true.
No. The only drawback is that a rogue is not an ideal party member candidate for maximizing the effectiveness of HAT, but other than that there is no disadvantage.
Why would Eviscerate outdamage Rupture on Thaddius? After all, it's not a crit buff, but a simple damage increasing buff. [1][2]
Don't get fooled by those big numbers.
Sorry, Thaddius was a bad example. Specifically Loatheb. (mentioned Thaddius because it was in my head that I tried with and w/o rupture on thaddius and did more dmg without, not because of Thads buff).
I've been doing some parsing though and it seems that around the 40-45% crit rate (with evisc) it out dmgs rupture even with a glyph, set bonus, and talents. My understanding of the dmg formulas aren't as good as I would like but I'm interested, hoping to get some testing time in this week.
I would like to sum some things up and figure out few things for myself so correct me please if i am wrong.
Talking about boss fights here.
Group setup:
Anything that has a pet is generally good.
1. Hunters
2. FG warlocks
3. DKs
4. Then its probably TG warriors, arcane mages (though they are all frostfire now) and rogues.
Poisons:
1. WP+DP is better if you have 2 more or less fast daggers. Slower dagger in the oh.
2. WP+WP is better if you have 2x webbed death only.
3. DP+WP is better if you are using smth like Grasp in the mh.
^^ Which one of those 3 will give most dps aprox.?
Spec and rotation:
General question here is what spec+rotation is considered superior atm?
There i have only questions pretty much, would be great if someone could clear few things up for me:
1. Ruthlessness 3/3 or no Ruthlessness 3/3? (my group usually isnt brilliant so "if you get flooded with cps" is prolly not the case for me and extra cps wont hurt)
2. My guess is Ruthlessness. So that leaves me with no imp Rupture and no BF. Do i include rupture in my cycle then or not?
3. If no Ruthlessness 3/3 then should i pick imp Rupture and use it with maximum uptime in my rotation?
4. Imp SnD vs 5/5 Precision. Would imp SnD be better (so i can toss more evises while its up) if i can get poison hit caped with 3/5 Precision with my gear?
1. Kind of a preference here and it depends on your group/raid. Usually I don't spec Ruth, I go for spatter (if I'm using rupture).
2. If you don't include Blood Spatter and your Crit% is high my experiences tell me that full on evis will out dmg an evis/rupt cycle
3. Yes, except on Loatheb
4. I'm not really sure why you want 5/5 Precision, just with gear you should be above the yellow cap, and with the right gear and/or a few gems you should be able to hit the poison cap in which case you should do Imp SnD.
Just to throw this in here, there's a "Top DPS" thread on the "Official" Rogue forums and if you look, almost all the bosses are being topped by HAT rogues. Looking at their WWS reports, all they are doing is maintaining SnD and using Evis and not using Rupture.
"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do ain't pretty"
Just to throw this in here, there's a "Top DPS" thread on the "Official" Rogue forums and if you look, almost all the bosses are being topped by HAT rogues. Looking at their WWS reports, all they are doing is maintaining SnD and using Evis and not using Rupture.
Hi guys, currently respecced to HaT for shits and gigs, anyway, I'm wondering rotation wise, should i be rupturing or not?
In a 5man my dps is quite low compared to mut, the highest dps i done was 3.2k on the final boss of H CoS, and the lowest i done was 2.4k dps on the other two bosses in there.
At the moment i am just keeping slice and dice up and just using beserking (racial) and eviscerating every 5 combo points. Is this what i should be doing? Reading other rogue DPS WWS posts, they aren't using Hemo much at all (1-10 times a 25man run if I'm reading correctly) i was using it quite often on trash so my energy didn't cap, is this okay?
Hi guys, currently respecced to HaT for shits and gigs, anyway, I'm wondering rotation wise, should i be rupturing or not?
In a 5man my dps is quite low compared to mut, the highest dps i done was 3.2k on the final boss of H CoS, and the lowest i done was 2.4k dps on the other two bosses in there.
At the moment i am just keeping slice and dice up and just using beserking (racial) and eviscerating every 5 combo points. Is this what i should be doing? Reading other rogue DPS WWS posts, they aren't using Hemo much at all (1-10 times a 25man run if I'm reading correctly) i was using it quite often on trash so my energy didn't cap, is this okay?
Any and all help is appreciated.
Well I'm also only considering speccing subt again, have been combat for a while, but from what I can tell:
You are nowhere close to optimal setup in 5mans (hat is intended for 25mans where you can have more control over your fellow party members) and therefore don’t get as much cps. Furthermore is not about not capping energy (nevertheless you shouldn’t cap it ;]) as evisc costs the same amount as hemo (more with 4pcs of T7.5) it’s more about not wasting too much cps.
And what concerns rupture, it's hard to say as spreadsheets doesn't model HaT yet, and the closest to the definite answer was a speculation that at 40-45% evisc crit - evisc outscales rupture =].
Also I was thinking about Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (4/21/46) sHAT build with Filthy Tricks. Sure this would incur a personal dps loss, but if you use ToTT to boost someone else it could be a viable trade off, but it’s only a speculation as I haven’t tested it.
Any thoughts on it?
Edit: Filthy tricks also reduces cd of preparation by 5min, it seems rather interesting as you get damage boost from bf, vanish, shs and all are resetable by preparation (considering preparation glyph, others being evic and s'n'd).
Completed my first night in 25 mans as sHaT, so I will share some stuff I learned about the spec tonight:
Rotation: In 10 man, I was concerned with my rotation because the CPs were not coming in too often. However, in 25 man that was not the case. I more or less had a good constant flow of CPs coming in throughout the night, and never seemed to have an issue with my CP generation. I had to Hemo every now and again, but it was pretty much just used to bridge a point or two. Other then that, the rotation was simply SnD and Evis till you need to refresh SnD.
Like I said above, the CP generation was healthy, but I wasn't "flooded" with CPs to the point were I just sat there and clicked Evis. Still, I did not feel CP starved.
My Spec: 6/21/44. I did not take Ruthlessness, and instead opted into BF and ShS.
The DPS isn't huge on bosses such as Patchwerk and Thaddius, however this was my first night that I have ever ran as sHaT. Also, the WWS parse linked above seems to be off a little. For example, it shows that our Patchwerk kill was 3 minutes and 5 seconds, which is off by about 40 seconds. Seems a little odd, especially since the DPS numbers themselves seem to match recount data for the night. Anyway, I'll try and fetch a more accurate WWS, but for now this is what I have.
Also, my weapons were Murder/Webbed Death and poison setup was dual Wound. My gear setup is 5/5 T7.5, and the rest can simply be armoried.
On a final note; our guild took a free transfer, so our next raid day (this Thursday) will be without the raid ID from tonight, so I'll look into posting up another Naxx WWS parse from that run, and that one should be smoother and we shouldn't be hammered to shit by lag. I am expecting to see a bit of an increase in total DPS.
Those two are doing better than Mutilate at the moment. This is with end-game gear and skilled guilds but nonetheless you can see a incline in Combat and HAT surpassing Mutilate. With the pending buffs that get added I suspect we will see Combat / Subt far ahead of Mutilate.
I mainly just do 10 mans so I have been pending making the switch to HAT or not. If I'm right currently Mutilate / Combat is best for 10s, correct?
Combat most certainly does not surpass Mutilate (particularly with both a Combat and an Assassination rogue in the raid) and various WWS aren't really proof of anything. So a few combat rogues got lucky with the RNG. That's about all it tells me. There's a reason spreadsheets exist.
HaT is highly dependent on external variables, which means, yes, you are correct, it's only viable in 25-man when you can have a close-to-perfect group setup.
Mutilate is better than Combat for single-target DPS during sustained fights, without a doubt. However, as fights get faster, Combat gains DPS, whereas Mutilate stays basically the same. Combat is helped even further if the fight duration is something like 2m30s, which means they're getting maximum uptime for BF. Now, add in if the fight is a fast one plus has adds, and Combat really takes the cake because of the amount of burst AE damage you can output while still maintaining your cycle. So it's not that surprising that Combat ends up on top for some of those fights.
As for HaT, it seems implied they will be changing the way pets interact with HaT, but I'd suspect even that won't push HaT under Mutilate, given how ahead it seems to be at the moment. But it's hard to say for sure.
EDIT: One other note, it does seem like the BiS spreadsheet gap between Mutilate and Combat might not exactly be as big as people initially thought, but you'll still probably see it trailing by 1-2%.
Chalon: Pets right now seem to be the biggest contributing factor to a HaT Rogue's ability to surpass the other specs. With pets working as they are right now, the CP generation with multiple Hunters in the group is perfect. Personally, I think HaT should stay as it is now, and the other two trees just need to see the buffs they need. I.E.: Damage increase for both, Armor Pen becoming useful in Combat again, Murder getting fixed, and HfB becomming less of an annoying talent. Buffing Sub ever-so-slightly to compensate for the Combat and Assassination buffs should keep HaT competative with the other specs.
HaT as it stands is a horrible implementation, because it forces you to stack groups, rather than considering overall raid composition. This runs directly counter to their new buff philosophy. The long-term fix for this is to make HaT look at the whole raid, but to raise the individual cooldown limit on combo points accordingly. If it looked at 25 people, but each had a 5 second cooldown instead of 1 seconds, the net income would be close to the same. It also makes the pet issue go away, because a few pets on top of a whole raid is a much smaller relative change in the number of combo point "feeders".
That however comes with another problem - many more combo points wasted if you happen to get a dozen or more procs within the same GCD. If HaT counted raid-wide crits, they might need to implement some kind of buffer mechanism. Alternatively, it might be tunable just by playing with the internal cooldown, and HaT rogues would just live with the fact that it's a very bursty and reactive spec.
A 5s internal cooldown per 25 man raid would still be too slow. Combat is better for quicker fights as Chalon stated. Spreadsheets are not always the best way to judge DPS, they just give you a ball park figure. Some mechanics are too sporadic to calculate in a spreadsheet and can throw a spec on top or bottom in terms of DPS. So throwing out the "luck" factor is not ideal when your talking about what does more dps, because "luck" can and will occur - so it needs to be averaged.
HaT as it stands is a horrible implementation, because it forces you to stack groups, rather than considering overall raid composition. This runs directly counter to their new buff philosophy. The long-term fix for this is to make HaT look at the whole raid, but to raise the individual cooldown limit on combo points accordingly. If it looked at 25 people, but each had a 5 second cooldown instead of 1 seconds, the net income would be close to the same. It also makes the pet issue go away, because a few pets on top of a whole raid is a much smaller relative change in the number of combo point "feeders".
That however comes with another problem - many more combo points wasted if you happen to get a dozen or more procs within the same GCD. If HaT counted raid-wide crits, they might need to implement some kind of buffer mechanism. Alternatively, it might be tunable just by playing with the internal cooldown, and HaT rogues would just live with the fact that it's a very bursty and reactive spec.
The problem with this, is that you are now completely non-viable in 10man, and downright useless in a 5man. The common feeling I notice is that putting pets alongside their owners on the same 1sec cooldown would properly reduce CP generation.
The spec is unlike any other class/spec in the game. It's new, it's fresh, it's on-your-toes esp since the fix.
The problem with this, is that you are now completely non-viable in 10man, and downright useless in a 5man. The common feeling I notice is that putting pets alongside their owners on the same 1sec cooldown would properly reduce CP generation.
The spec is unlike any other class/spec in the game. It's new, it's fresh, it's on-your-toes esp since the fix.
The main thing I've noticed about it is that it's entirely reactive. I react to my combo point generation (which is out of my hands) and hit Eviscerate when necessary, keeping SnD up.
Other builds, I'm actively building the combo points towards the "goals" of finishers.
Watching your combo bar and spamming one button doesn't really feel much more "on your toes" than watching RPB to make sure HfB doesn't drop though. I'm just glad to push ahead of the ranged dps on certain Naxx fights now.
01/25/09, 5:51 PM
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