Actually I think the answer to the rupture vs no rupture debate is not as simple as you think. First, rupture costs less than eviscerate, 25 energy vs 35, or 0 energy vs 10 if you are expertise capped and have 5/5 in relentless strikes. So if you are looking at it from the stand point of best use of energy, rupture will do more damage per energy spent (infinitely more if you want to be mathematically precise).

Even if you are arguing that limited energy is not a binding constraint, and what limits you is just the number of global cooldowns or "button pushes" during the fight, let's talk about how much pure damage you can get out of your 5 point rupture vs a 5 point eviscerate. There are two common HaT specs, one is 8/20/43 and has full aggression and imp eviscerate; the other is 13/15/43 with blood spatter and maxed out malice.

I am going to use Vulajin's spreadsheet, as a well-recognized source. His calculation of rupture and eviscerate damage has long passed the tests of many rogues. The gear: 4 pc t7.25, Chestguard of Recluse chest, KT cloak, Thrusting bands, Stalk-skin belt, Footwraps of Vile deceipt, Strong-Handed and Surge Needle rings, Fotff and DMC:Greatness, Favor of the Dragon Queen, Envoy of Mortality, CG main hand and WB offhand. All red gems are agility, all yellow gems are accurate monarchs, and all blue gems are shifting opals, best enchants - one of the best setups you can get right now. Assume full raid buffs, then before buffs and talents, rupture does 4993 damage, after applying the buffs and talents, a single rupture does 9547 damage (7673 if not glyphed). Eviscerate unbuffed does 3986, and after taking into account all buffs, talents, damage reduction due to armor, and crit rate, a single eviscerate will do 6338 on average. So a single rupture keypress will do more damage than eviscerate keypress, and for 10 less energy.

For 13/15/43 spec, a rupture will do 11,593 damage compared to eviscerate 5524 average damage (when both are properly glyphed).

So you see, in order to justify using eviscerate over rupture you can't just go by the damage each of these abilities does, because rupture does up to two times more. You have to work into this equation other factors, such as the fact that you generate a combo point by using eviscerate (if it crits) for yourself and for another Hat specced rogue in your group. But to weigh all these factors, you need to model the impact of an extra combo point you get from an eviscerate (if it crits) and that it not something I can do in my head, so I am using a spreadsheet. Based on the limited findings I have so far, even with 13/15/43 spec, using rupture will increase your dps, even if you have a stacked group of 4 hunters and can spam eviscerate. Even then substituting a rupture over an eviscerate every 20 seconds, will result in a sizable increase in dps.

I am guessing reports of increases in dps from eliminating rupture from your rotation all date back to when HaT was broken and people were running with 3+ HaT rogues in the group. Under those circumstances, the effect of an extra crit from an eviscerate was magnified manifold by the broken mechanics. Given the current rate of combo point generation through HaT, I cannot justify eliminating rupture from my rotation.

Mavanas, many thanks for your work on this.

I'm interested in a backstab / slaughter from the shadows / puncturing wounds build. Under optimal group/crit assumptions I don't think this will beat the suggested build, but under more modest assumptions it may be competitive.

Is it valid to simulate 5 points in the slaughter from the shadows talent by setting
AvDamage!F12 = 45*(1-Inputs!$M$27) ?

(SftS also opens up some interesting vanish/premed/ambush options)

After reading the last few pages of this thread I have come to the following conclusions (please correct me if I may have misunderstood):

1. CG/WD with WP/WP would be the ideal weapon set up.

2. 4pc T7 is worthless for HAT since you shouldn't be using combo generating moves.

3. Eviscerate spamming + SND seems to be what most people are doing, but reading above, how can that be true if a Rupture ends up giving more dmg/GCD or dmg/energy.

4. Gemming AP and getting Expertise cap as well as hit cap are the priority, gemming Agi is not as useful.

I have been Muti ever since I started raiding and want to start treading into the waters of HAT.

Current gear setup can be found: The World of Warcraft Armory

I don't have a non 4pc T7 setup yet, and I only have these 2 daggers to use. Is it worth trying the spec out?

My group comp will be 2x Surv Hunters, DK and a FG Warlock most likely.

There seems to be alot of hate for the HaT spec'ed rogues (reading on various forums), not sure why - but I want to try this spec for this coming fridays raid. I am currently mut and doing fairly well with it. I only switched two weeks ago so I am getting down the rotations and expectations of it, given different scenarios. But dps is like crack, you gotta get more!!

So, given my gear:
The World of Warcraft Armory

And the fact this would be a new spec, though I can't imagine the rotation would be difficult - what is an expected return on say, Patchwerk or Maexx ? etc.. I know there are so many variables in place, but I am curious if the HaT spec would show such a disparity in dps than mut. As aside, I was able to get to 5160dps on patchwerk on my last run as mut.

So in a nutshell, long winded - I know, what can I expect from HaT over mut given my gear and assuming at least reasonable control of a rotation.
(raid composition is varied and I will probably at least be able to negotiate at least 2 hunters in a group with any combo of other classes )

My new file is streamlined to increase calculation speed. I listened to Vulajin and made changes that are confirmed to be true in Rogue Spreadsheet file. If you find discrepancies, please let me know.

Some features, like vanish/garrote during combat are still work in progress.

The file is located at Rogue_Simulation_3.0.8b.xls Download File on FileFront.

I would like to appologize for posting my previous message drunk. I took out all my comments about HaT.

i rolled rogue some weeks ago, after some break during which i've been playing on my boomkin.
my english sucks, so i have hard times reading forums :p
the only question i have is: is it worth keeping expertise cap or is it better to gem pure ap gems instead?
my char here:
The World of Warcraft Armory

I'd disagree about Sinister Revenge and Rupture. Dual WD is optimal for HaT because of poison procs since you aren't using Deadly Poison (should be using Wound/Wound), and it makes total sense because with the SnD buff dual IP + Evisc is at worst on par with IP/DP + Envenom for Mutilate. Same concept, different spec.

So far the strongest HaT spec for me has been 8/20/43 with 3/3 Ruthlessness (the rest being standard). The big thing I like about Ruthlessness is it helps curb any unlucky CP droughts. Sure, you may waste some crits because Ruthlessness proc'd and you went immediately back to 5 CPs, however I noticed roughly an equal amount of times where a proc has turned what may have been a 2-3 pointer into a 3-4 pointer, which is a definite DPS increase when you're basically trying to use every GCD as it comes up.

Of course, what this has to do with Rupture is the fact that you don't pick up Blood Spatter, which at the high end I'm inclined to say pushes your Evisc ahead of Rupture. This is all purely based on my experience with trying builds that incorporate Rupture, and using a build that simply spams Evisc.

@Mavanas

I just tried the new spreadsheet and it seems that the DPS simulation is not working. At first, I thought it might have been me changing a variable that wasn't supposed to be changed. Then I decided to just try to run the DPS simulation without making any changes and it still doesn't run.

I noticed quite a few #name? on the Combat tab and #div/0! in the dps output tab. Am I overlooking something obvious? Thanks for your work on the spreadsheet so far.

Thanks for reporting this problem. I just downloaded the file from filefront and it seems to be working just as well as the copy I have on my computer. Can you give me more information about the problem you are experiencing? First of all, are you using Microsoft Excel or OpenOffice? I have not tested the simulation in Open Office. Second can you tell me in which exact cells you see #name and in which cells you observe #div/0!

#name tells me, there might be a problem going on with name ranges, but again since my copy of the file does not have these problems, you will need to provide more information. Is anyone else having the same problem?



@Mochana
That's one way of incorporating Slaughter from the Shadows, I will put implement this talent in the next version of the spreadsheet.

Re-downloaded the file and using Excel 2007. When I hit run DPS simulation, excel seems to be attempting to perform the calculations, but nothing happens. The progress percentage doesn't change. After a few minutes it stops and nothing changes.

I'm seeing #name? in the following for combat tab:

Each of the subsequent rows contain the same errors, I just pasted the initial row.

Blizi,

if this is the very first spot where #name appears, it looks like your excel does not recognize the mround function. The function comes with Analysis Toolpak, which should come with every version of Excel. To install the function, go to Tools Menu ->Add-ins -> Analysis Toolpak and install the add-in.

Let me know if that did not work.

I did not realize this function only comes with the toolpak, I will try to find a workaround using regular excel functions for later versions.

I don't have any math to back this up but I would add one thing in consideration for using shiv in HAT. Using hemo gains a debuff on the boss which (if even slightly) increases the damage that all melee classes output. I would be curious to see if the increase in dps from more frequent poison strikes out-damages the quasi-raid utility that a hemorrhage strike gives.

Shiv is, assuming webbed death oh, 1 energy cheaper than hemo. Using wound poison, you're only gaining 50% of the poison's damage in exchange for the loss of the debuff (which alone is more raid dps than the wound poison proc at any currently reachable level of ap) and the damage difference between hemo and shiv.

Even from just a purely selfish level ignoring the debuff, you need .5*poison damage to exceed the difference between hemo's damage and shiv's. This won't happen with wound; it can with instant poison (where it's the much greater amount of ip damage minus half of wound damage), but you'll lose damage from autoattack procs by using untalented instant with no envenom. Still, if you're going to do this, it has to be using instant poison if you want to have hope to see improvement. Shiving with wound is just a direct downgrade from hemo.

On a data note, my parse using my envenom build, and with an amazingly dumb group including a prot warrior and a resto druid for this fight because I just completely forgot until after patch: Wow Web Stats

I think comparison of Shiv to backstab is more appropriate. The main point is we want to use two fast daggers to maximize poison damage while eviscerate and rupture damage is not affected, and then minimize the loss of dps that results from using an ineffective combo-builder.

None of the combo builders, hemo, ss, backstab or shiv are very effective use of energy compared to your finishers, and you really want to minimize their use (my rule of thumb is not to use hemo or backstab if I have at least 3 combo points).

One of the ways to compare the various combo point builders is by their DPE. AvDamage tab of my spreadsheet has all the appropriate calculations for hemo and backstab and I recently added shiv after talking to Stool.

I get the following values (assuming wound poison on OH):

For 13/14/44 build using CG and WD
- hemo = 69 dpe
- shiv 49 dpe

For 13/14/44 build using double WD
- hemo = 36 dpe
- backstab = 51 dpe
- shiv 49 dpe

For 8/19/44 build using double WD
- hemo = 36 dpe
- backstab = 55 dpe
- shiv 49 dpe

So as first guess, backstab seems better than Shiv, but as always there is a caveat. Backstab burns too much energy, and even though it may be more effective than shiv, perhaps you would be better off by burning just enough energy not to get capped and then using a much more effective finisher.

EDIT: I have incorporated shiv into the spreadsheet, and for low combo point generation (hunter, hunter, dk, rogue group), shiv and hemo with 13/14/44 spec come out on top. Hemo is slightly ahead but the difference is not statistically significant. For high combo point generation (4xhunter), shiv and backstab with 8/19/44 spec come out on top. Again backstab is marginally better, but the difference is not statistically significant. So Shiv is definitely viable in both cases.

The new version also incorporated premed, prep, slaughter from the shadows, elusiveness, and allowed for vanish/garrote during combat. The updated file can be found at Rogue_Simulation_3.0.8c.xls Download File on FileFront.

I have been hat since 3.0 dropped (tried out mut here and there, but i prefer the versatility and utility of hat over the complicated rotations often broken by instance and server lag)

Something i have noticed since the recent change to SnD is that my white damage has skyrocketed, also i have a feeling that with the new changes to combat, it will be significantly higher dps to start ignoring rupture altogether and take the 10% haste from lightning reflexes over blood splatter.

this weeks patchwerk:
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish
(i use the expose armor glyph, since i have found there are alot of situations where a 40 second expose armor comes in really handy)

next week im considering running with SR over WD for my offhand to see if the offhand damage makes up for the reduced poison procs.

(just on a side note, having 8k ap with all procs up is really nice to see)

I have some quick questions that I'm sure I've missed somewhere about the party-stacking of HaT.

1. I assume that things like Searing Totems, Glyph of HL etc. don't count towards CP generation, confirm?
2. On a fight such as Sartharion, with the portals and phasing, does HaT give you CPs from the other side of the portal to your party member?

Edit: I'll go ahead and answer my own concerns

Confirmed that Glyph of HL and all shaman totems don't proc a CP.
Confirmed that phasing on Sarth portals completely eliminates CP generation by party members.

I disagree with multiple points here.

First, your Subtlety tree is very similar, and I don't disagree with much. My opener looks like this: Stealthed -> Tricks on Tank -> Sprint if applicable -> Premed -> Garrote (uses less energy than ambush) -> SnD. On the other hand, we basically disagree on what talents to take for filler to get to deeper tiers. I generally take 3 points in Initiative because it gives me 4 points on my opener, and I will SnD at 4 or 5 if my group has already started DPS. Other than that, each point that differs is total filler, I choose 1 in MoD and 1 in Enveloping Shadows (basically the only point you can pick up that's worthwhile in PvE).

Second, your Combat tree is slightly confusing.

To start, Improved SnD on top of the SnD glyph is one of the better choices to make for a HaT build. The better stacked/geared your group is, the more and more you'll find yourself GCD locked on finishers. This means that extending your SnD allows you to fit more Eviscerates in per GCD spent on SnD, and is absolutely one of the strongest ways for this build to scale, since with a strong group Eviscerate is going to comprise roughly 50% of your total damage. The two points I'd sacrifice are in Precision, simply because if you are near top end gear you will have poisons capped with 3/5 precision. So with Evisc/Rupture (if used)/wound poison is capped, you're gaining 2% hit on a relatively low portion of damage.

I'm also not a huge fan of Blade Flurry. Once again, in an idyllic setting you will be GCD locked on high point finishers, and a 2 minute CD for 15% attack speed for 15 seconds isn't that great of an investment. HaT is also the build that has the least stacking synergy for BF, since you don't have Combat Potency or FA affecting your other damage. Granted you can pop a vanish and use BF during your MoS, but it's generally better to use your MoS during BL. Obviously BF should be used then as well, but to truly get the mileage of BF + Prep Glyph you want to, you may not be able to line everything up appropriately with BL unless you pop it immediately in the beginning. This is also not optimal, as you want BL to be running at sub-35%. For me, having less abilities that take up a GCD is key for this build.

Your Assassination tree is ok. Personally, I take the point of out BF + 2 out of Malice and get Ruthlessness. This seems to be where opinion differs for some people, and logically this is where group comp dictates what is stronger. The people who never use a finisher unless it's 4-5 points will likely completely ignore Ruthlessness, but they're also the same people who drop 35 energy + a GCD to make sure they have 4-5 CPs before finishing. I can see the value fluctuating depending on your group. For me, it's ultimately worth it because I try to avoid CP builders whenever possible, so each proc not only gives me a 20% better chance at returning energy (which can sometimes be an issue with low group procs), but it also increases my average amount of CPs per finisher.

I guess this leads into my point of philosophy on this spec. If your group is stacked sufficiently well, you will ultimately be better off using 3pt+ finishers when appropriate. You can't sustain 3 point finishers indefinitely because of energy returns, but using a 3 pointer instead of Hemo is stronger in multiple ways.

For example, if I come out of a finisher with a Ruthlessness proc, and move up to 4 CPs immediately, I can finish again. Without the proc I will sit at 3 CP with two choices: Pop Evisc once more for 35 energy with 60% chance to refund 25 and clearing all CPs, or Hemo using 35 energy building points to within 1 of my maximum. Now, with a group that has generally high CP rates, incurring the GCD through hemo puts you at 4 points. If two people crit before you're off the GCD, you just wasted incoming CPs.

With Eviscerate you cleared your CP table (because if your GCD clears and you have 3 CPs, it's likely more procs are coming in very soon), you likely spent less energy (60% chance for a refund), and you just did more damage with your GCD (assuming dual WD). If you don't get flooded with CPs, you have a 60% chance to proc one from Ruthlessness and are likely to be back in the same situation you were just in, which is a much better place to be than potentially wasting group CPs, and wasting a GCD on Hemo.

I think a worthy debate right now is the last 2 points of Aggression vs Blood Spatter. Since I haven't been running Rupture as HaT I don't really have numbers for comparison, so this may be something I test this week if I have the same group.

There is too little analysis here, not even napkin math. Can you back up omitting improved slice and dice and ruthlessness that are part of specs of many people who use HaT and can also be confirmed as optimal based on the HaT simulation spreadsheet?

What's better 2% crit or blood spatter? Again you need to run the numbers. Typically 80% of your damage (eviscerate, combo builder and white melee damage) is affected by malice. If you do not do a calculation of value of extra combo points generated by your attacks through HaT, all you can say is that 2 points in malice increases your damage by about 0.8%. 2 points in blood spatter increase about 9% of your damage (rupture and garrote, which you should be using instead of ambush since it's much better damage per energy and no extra combo point is going to cover that gap). Garrote is increased by 30%, rupture is increased by about 22%, if you have serrated blades (serrated blades effect is added with blood spatter before multiplying rupture damage), for a total of about 2% damage increase. You have to carefully model HaT mechanics before you can claim that the extra combo points generated because of 2 additional points in malice overcome the 1.2% dps difference.

The model I use shows that 2 points in blood spatter increases your dps more than 2 points in malice. The combined effect of 2 points in malice is about 1.2%. The combined effect of blood spatter is 2% as anticipated.

The bottom line is, you should back up your statements where possible, instead of just making claims that have neither empirical nor theoretical validity.

EDIT: Denic beat me to raising two main questions about improved slice and dice and ruthlessness. As for aggression vs blood spatter, 2 points in aggression increase eviscerate by about 4.76% (6% from talent is added with improved eviscerate talent first, and only then used as a factor to multiply eviscerate damage). So if eviscerate is 50% of your damage, 2 points in aggression is worth 2.38% dps increase vs 2% from blood spatter. If eviscerate is 42% of your damage or more, aggression pulls ahead of blood spatter. This finding is confirmed by the simulation spreadsheet.

Also, just as a note in my own defense, the build in the op was more or less a blind guess at the build, before it was in common use even in bugged form. Attacking it at this stage is more than a bit unneeded. I'll edit in notes mentioning as much and linking to more recent and better information after my raid tonight.

I hate to post without first reading the entire thread though it has gotten quite long so the most recent 5 pages will have to do!

Our 25man group currently has 3 rogues in it. We are all combat spec and I am getting tired of being the same. In my current gear with mace/sword spec dread/hailstorm I pull 4500-4600dps on Patchwerk (only 200dps off the spreadsheet). I refuse to play mutilate out of spite (long story) so I have been wanting to give HaT a try for a while.

1) Will my current weapons work without killing my dps?
1b) Could someone recommend a HaT build for current weapons? (if my current weapons do not waste it)
2) What weapons would I aim for to maximize? (we currently shard daggers... so I could pick up anything)
2b) Could someone recommend a HaT build for the the answer to #2?

Thanks!!!

You're generally going to want a combination of daggers and fists. To be short for #1 and #1b, yes your current weapons waste it, because you get no benefit from CQC and cannot pick up the appropriate weapon specializations. I suppose you could give it a go, but you're going to be short 5% crit from a fist/dagger or dagger/dagger build.

For #2, WD/WD is optimal for poison procs. CG/WD isn't bad, and HaT Rogues have put up impressive numbers using this combination.

For 2b: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is what I run with.

Denic, I see you are specc'ed mut right now. What are you noticing between the two specs, mut vs. hat in 25man raids. The disparity between what hat puts out is of concern. Sometimes I see wonderful numbers, other times - blah. Of course, I never tried the spec and I am scared of those "dry spells". We do have at least 2 hunters and a few death knights running, in addition to a mage or two etc..

Anyways, do you find Mut ever putting out better dps or does hat always take the cake? Of course, I am only asking from your point of view.