We had a Naxx 25run today and both rogues specced into HAT for testing today. (with Evis Glyph)
Group was: 2 rogues, 1 DK, 1 TitansGrip, 1 Retradin

I *WWS'ed* the whole run; unfortunately Patchwork got messed up due to the offtank dieing.
But probably other interesting fight which could show the potential of this specc could be Faerlina, Gluth, and naturally Loatheb.


Certainly it is easy to say, that the CP Generation was totaly insane. Also one thing we both realized that if one of the HAT specced rogues died the CP generation for the other rouge took a huge hit. So very many CPs seem to come from the other rogue(s).
Also we both had a kind of feeling that it wasn't worth it to keep rupture going through the fight and instead just keep S&D up and then just spam Eviscerate. The CP generation was so immense that nearly every GCD was at 4-5 CPs. And often through the process of renewing rupture I kept hearing the sound, that I got new CPs....and had the feeling that if I'd just spammed Evis it would have been a better way to go. (Which is the same feeling Eowyndra had; Leaving rupture out could be better and gives some skillpoint which could be spent somewhere else. Yet also I have to say that my PC isn't the best anymore and with lagging graphics I couldn't run that smooth cycles like I'd have done. So the dmg from rupture with the 2piece Bonus could come out very well.)

Afterwards I tested this spec in a 5man heroic and couldn't complain about the possible disadvantages of this spec when it comes to not-raidbuffed or not-potted. For a 5man instance the CP generation was also feeling quite right and I wouldn't say that it was really better or worse than Mutilate or Combat.

Concerning 10mans where I wouldn't have the second HAT rogue with us I'm not quite sure if this build will really take the huge blow to generating CPs from the other party members or not. (I'm not too convinced that really just us 5 people in the same group are responsible for the Combopoints)
I'm going into Naxx10 again on Wednesday and will just test this with my group there. I've had the last ID WWS'ed and could easily log the next ID. With keeping equip nearly the same level as last week there should be a kind of comparison possible.

Okay folks, I realize you're all excited about the possibilities of deep-sub specs for raiding, but lets try to keep this conversation productive. We don't really need pages upon pages of "I specced HaT and did Naxx" anecdotes - yes, you generate a lot of combo points, and yes, Eviscerate hits pretty hard, and we're glad you're having fun. These points have been discussed extensively. Hence, please avoid such trivial observations in the future - provide some new insights or observations or analysis or otherwise something that we haven't heard before. Thanks.

I remember talk at 70 how a resto shaman would be great due to each chain heal having 3 chances of critting. How does this work with other classes. For example, would CoH work the same way? If so I could see a disc priest (atleast until the cooldown on coh being decent).

I think it would be helpful to try to determine on average a listing of who the best classes / specs would be for a HAT group. Another HAT rogue would obviously be top, closely followed by hunters, but then it's not clear who exactly would be best afterwards. My guess would be feral druids/warriors (Since heroic strike crits count).

Enhancement shamans would probably help as much as a feral druid and warrior.

But I'm not sure how Deathknights would do though, since I don't understand them very well at the moment.

I remember a post on the wow forums that vulajin had replied to concerning the use of a fist as an OH and it having some sort of a buff compared to a dagger. What was that and how does it work? Does anyone know?

Your post is far too vague for me to have any recollection of what you're talking about.

Is it anything to do with the bug where fists gain 5% extra crit?

The only advice I can give is what I did on beta with it and some of late sunwell. Most of the work I did was on combat dummies in IF as far as testing classes. The things I remember off hand that gave CPS in spades.

Hunter pet Ability, (not white damage) crits. Things like windserpent lightning bolts and stuff like that. I'm not sure if Kill command did or not.

I think my buddy was doing a Imp. Imp warlock spec to test all numbers and when the imp fireballs crit I got CP's aswell.

One of the most notable things was that Enh shaman Stormstrikes are potentialy 2cps when both weapons crit.

I realize that another rogue if you really are maximizing the set up should be HaT as well but from my findings of Shaman SS then it is realistic to assume that Mutilate could possibly result in 2 CP's aswell.

Actually its late and I'm gonna bug late night guildys to do some testing with me on dummys so I'll report back in hopefully a couple hours with more info.

I know my Pally is my profile but my main is Microism/US Anvilmar

This is a good point yes, if Blizzard would make the current fast "off-hand" fists weapons into "one-hand" then it could maybe work pretty well to go double fists.

A little off-topic but you will notice that unlike daggers, swords, maces and axes, most fist weapons have different models for "main-hand" and "off-hand".
With the exception of your standard green/gray quality fist weapon model ([Diamond Tipped Claws]), the current selection of "main/off-hand" fist weapons would require more than a "main/off-hand" to "one-hand" stat conversion.
That is probably the reason fist weapons were left alone when allot of the other weapons where converted to "one-hand" and also the reason it is save to assume it won't happen any time soon.

Normalization is only applicable to skill which are normalized. Eviscerate is not normalized (nor is it related to weapon speed and damage), so for the most part the weapon type is not relevant at all. If you use hemo or FoK, you'll hit harder with a fist than you would with a dagger, but given that you use either of these relatively infrequently as a HaT rogue, I can't imagine that the extra damage would make up for the loss of poison procs.

Evis doesnt have anything to do with your weapon :/

Base weapondamage doesn't matter for Eviscerates. If you were to have a dagger with 1-2 damage, but for the rest the same stats (36 agi, 37 crit and 98 AP), you would be able to eviscerate a mob for the exact same amount of damage.
Your white damage would be considerably lower, and so would your mutilates/sinister strikes/backstabs/hemorrhages. But your Eviscerates would be identical.
So what matters for HaT is the DPS of the weapon for your white damage, and whether the higher amount of poison procs from a faster but lower DPS weapon is enough to offset the difference. So yes, it does boil down to poison procs.
There used to be some rule of thumb about the weaponspeed and DPS value, around 10 DPS more per 0.1 weaponspeed less, but remember, that is just an estimate.

That's however an old estimate with combat specs in mind.

I tested this out in 25 man nax today with a fellow guild rogue. He was not as successful at it since we were both trying it out for the first time ever.

The other rogue later on switched back to combat fist/dagger later on in the raid to see the dps difference (the boss he tried it on we wiped, so we aren't sure of the exact difference yet). However I do know that there is an extreme loss of combo points do to the loss of one rogue with HaT.

Here is a link to our wws for the night. Wow Web Stats

After the night I received three major upgrades which will obviously improve my dps by far.
I was wearing the Wyvrend accord bracers, and the Tier 7 chest piece.

My group make up was a Hunter, Enhancement Shaman, Dps Warrior, HaT Rogue, Me (HaT Rogue)

Extra testing I did tonight as far as classes and abilitys that do trigger CP's

These are just the guildies I had on to help me with testing so I guess more to come.

+= Added points -= no points received on crit
Priests
+Shadow word Death
+Mind Blast
+Holy Nova (multiples)
-Mindsear
-Mind Flay
-Prayer of Mending
+Flash heal
+Greater Heal

Druid
+Shred
+Claw
+Maul
+Moonfire
+Typhoon (Multiples)
+Wrath
+Starfire
-Hurricane
-Tree Ents

Shaman
+Chain heal, Didn't ever get to see a multiple crit so don't know if bounced crits effect added CP
+Healing wave and Lesser
+Thunderstorm (Multi)
+Chain Lightning (Multi)
+Lava Burst
+all shocks
+Lightning Bolt (Lightning overload Procs do not give extra pts. They sit within the 1sec barrier)
+Storm Strike (multi) If both weapons crit you will get 2 pts.

Hunters
+Shots/Steady/Arcane/Kill/Multi 1cp/Crit Target
-Volley

Pet abilitys
+Claw
+Bite (this was huge Hyena's/Wolves do a ton of attacking and it is all Bite) Hyena is also one of the choice pets for BM right now I guess so you might see a lot of them in raids.
+Swipe (Multi) I would like to assume that since a hunter pet swipe gets multi points that a Druid bear would aswell but 20 mins of swipes from a ballance druid and we didn't have a time where both targets received a crit so this is unconfirmed.
+Lightning Bolt, This one I remember from beta as many hunters where trying out Surv for a DPS spec and many of them had wind serpents.

That's all the testing that I have so far.

It is also something that I notice from digging through our WWS reports that one of our most consistent people who crit spells/abilitys in our raid was Holy Paladins and I will do testing today to see if Beacon crits get you multiple points if so they could actually be one of the prime classes to be grouped with.

Thanks for the thread BTW. It sure beats listening to everyone ask how to DPS instead of a thread like this where we are actually getting into the nuts and bolts of if something is raid viable.

Lilpenny

I might be mistaken but isnt a felguard spec more of a PvP spec?

2 HaT Rogues in group means 2 CPs from crits instead of one, which has been identified as a "Buggy Rogue Mechanic".

HaT DPS needs to be analyzed with just one HaT Rogue in the group currently.

I am not sure if we agreed on HaT being buggy or working as intended. I know of no definite blue answer in the ways of "its a bug and will be fixed" or "working as intended". Though i doubt Blizzard intended to re-implement a stacking ability like hunters in TBC i can see that Honor among Thieves could be intended to work like it is working currently. Be it a slacky worded tooltip or just a bug with unintended stacking. We wont know until Blizzard tells us what they intended the talent to work like.

I can confirm that through individual testing; Human Female, Human Male, and Female Dwarf rogues' Crits interact with each other via Broken HaT.
As observed by other people in the thread, we also noticed that the exclusion of Rupture from the cycle increased DPS by a large margin;
The culprit probably being due to the similarity of specs and glyphs between the 3 of us; our cycles evened out to be almost identical, IE. all 3 of us ended up refreshing Rupture and SnD at the exact same time throughout the fight. Being that neither of the two can crit, all 3 rogues are losing CP's and DPS during that time, leading to a short rampup period afterwards; until one of the rogues Crits a Hemorrhage.

Although it has been discussed before, the viability of this spec even when not stacking more than one HaT in the raid is quite staggering. In 10 Man Eye of Eternity last night myself as 51/13/7 and the other rogue as 7/20/44; he was able to be very competitive as far as DPS goes, still bouncing between #1 and #3 on the charts and beating me at certain points; despite the similarity of our gear and lack of hunters or HaT rogues in the party.

EDIT: A little off topic, but having Cheat Death was a definite advantage on Patchwerk; I was able to eat a hateful and stay alive the entire fight.

Something I'm highly curious as to regarding the HAT spec is how it will scale in the months to come. Considering Evis is one of our poorest scaling abilities, if this is nerfed now due to what we consider a bug will it have to be buffed in the future to compensate. I tried looking for the current evis scaling numbers to throw in some hypothetical numbers and failed.

I am planning on trying out HaT this week in heroic naxx and I need help choosing weapons:
[Greed]
[Omen of Ruin]
[Knife of Incision]
[Twilight Mist]
those are my CQC weapons that i currently have, which 2 should i be using, and in which hand for each

also, this is the spec that i chose to go with:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

link to my gear/stats:
The World of Warcraft Armory

couple questions I have are, which 2 weapons, which poisons to use, any insight on rotations, use hemo for the debuff or is it not worth wasting the GCD, keep up rupture or is it a waste of a GCD?
also most importantly, does anyone have 'magic numbers' of hit/expertise that i should shoot for to accomodate this spec? I'm thinking 6.5% expertise since I dont have surprise attacks, and enough hit to cover the poison cap