Who was in your party for that parse, Stool? I'm still experimenting with proper group stacking in my oddball raid (no enhance shaman, no arcane mage, bad moonkin), and finding that time on target / time spent casting is just as important as the procs generated on an average basis. To compare apples to apples, knowing who is in your party for that Deconstructor kill would be a big help.
Who was in your party for that parse, Stool? I'm still experimenting with proper group stacking in my oddball raid (no enhance shaman, no arcane mage, bad moonkin), and finding that time on target / time spent casting is just as important as the procs generated on an average basis. To compare apples to apples, knowing who is in your party for that Deconstructor kill would be a big help.
I posted this previously, but here it is again with the names of the specific players.
So big changes for HaT group composition. Big changes to our DPS. The highest crit/sec rate from group based on these numbers is a modest 1.68 crit/second. Based on the simulator, this group setup with t7 gear in 3.1 does around 7.1k dps.
i was wondering if anyone had done any testing with arms warriors, since they arnt on the list and yet are supposedly being used to raid with now. My guild has 3 warriors that are very interested in going back to arms and knowing they could be helping out my hat dps even more would be a nice little incentive for them.
On a different note, has anyone else been able to confirm that explosive shot does not proc HaT? I also noticed bug reports that explosive shot does not proc Thrill of the Hunt and Go For the Throat. Those who know the history of ES, when it first came out, there was same problem with it, where its crits were not proccing Thrill of the Hunt. Then Blizzard fixed it. I am sure that HaT not proccing from ES is directly related to these two bugs.
I can't confirm for sure it's due to explosive shot, but Surv. Hunt certainly give a lot less combo point in 3.1.
It maybe due to the fact that pet's crits don't proc hat anymore, too.
As for the explosive shot, it does not proc HaT. I tested this with only 2 hunters in my group and them using only Explosive Shot. Not sure if its intended or bugged, but ES no longer procs it.
From what I've seen Disc Priests also have pretty high crit and I know the ones in my guild spam quick healing spells. Has anyone done any testing with them in their group?
Blue Post: *Critical strikes from the Hunter ability Explosive Shot should properly trigger Thrill of the Hunt again.*
Not sure if HaT procs now from ES, not sure why it wouldn't. Can anyone verify if ES procs HaT now, if not i can check later tonight during raid.
Just got done with the test dummy, and it seems like ES still does not proc HaT. I can't be entirely sure that the guy knew what I was asking for, but I was getting combo points for crits on his aimed shot, scatter shot, etc., and I was getting no points when he was using only explosive shot, and telling me when he crit.
Ok last night in ulduar i was in a party with another hat rogue a fire/arcane mage, fury warrior and a enhance shammy.
@ deconstructer i had almost 6k dps, so my question is if its good to have another hat rogue in the party and am i using the right classes for my group?because sometimes i need to w8 almost 2/3 secs for 1 cp!
and can plz someone tell me what the best spec is that i can use, im trying a lot of different specs atm but i dont figure it out yet.
also i used 2 hunters in my group and that sucks tbh, so im sure the ES don't proc hat anymore.
Has anyone tried using 2/2 Blood Spatter over 2/5 Aggression? Although 6% Eviscerate damage is nice but reallistically its only 600 damage ontop of a 10k crit (as an example) surely 30% rupture/garrotte damage would benifit more in the long run? Keeping up those ticks especially with T8 4 pc set bonus
Has anyone tried using 2/2 Blood Spatter over 2/5 Aggression? Although 6% Eviscerate damage is nice but reallistically its only 600 damage ontop of a 10k crit (as an example) surely 30% rupture/garrotte damage would benifit more in the long run? Keeping up those ticks especially with T8 4 pc set bonus
To get your answer grab a damage meter (skada or recount) or any tool that allows you to parse your combat log and lets you visualize it.
Most HaT rogues damage will be made up of about a minimum of 35% Eviscerate and a maximum of 5% Rupture.
As you can now clearly see, an 6% in-/decrease of these 35% (i.e. 2.1% total damage in-/decrease) will be slightly more than an 30% change to 5% Rupture damage (1.5% total).
I got a friend of mine to test this ES still does not give combo give points, kind of bummer since it will proc something else.
It also doesn't proc Fury of the Five Flights trinket also, and i know some hunters are still pretty po'd. I'm sure its just bugged and should proc HaT but atm it dont, and with new content, HaT seems to be bleh since its kinda hard to get a decent group for it most times. Hopefully soon everything will be fixed, but we'll see.
Last night i tried out "HaT" with a group consisting of 2 Fury Warriors and 2 Arcane Mages, the CP generation was unbelievably fast yet my DPS was still sitting around 3.5-4k, is this because i'm using x2 fast weapons? My poisons equipped (which i tried out) WP/DP and IP/DP in the end they didn't work out all that different.
I'll have to get a slow MH to see the difference but for some reason Mutilate seems more DPS for me at this moment in time.
To get your answer grab a damage meter (skada or recount) or any tool that allows you to parse your combat log and lets you visualize it.
Most HaT rogues damage will be made up of about a minimum of 35% Eviscerate and a maximum of 5% Rupture.
As you can now clearly see, an 6% in-/decrease of these 35% (i.e. 2.1% total damage in-/decrease) will be slightly more than an 30% change to 5% Rupture damage (1.5% total).
Hold on just a moment. I was wondering if you were counting the 6% additional damage in your estimations of damage proportions and so I decided to do a little investigating. That is the convention, anyway. Heck, when I play as HAT lately I'm taking 2/5 Aggression.
DAMAGE
2,238,746 total
635,348 eviscerate
130,656 rupture
It is very important to note that I am assuming 2/5 Aggression was a factor in creating this parse. His HaT spec as saved on wowarmory.com shows that he has these points and the combat log is from just a few days ago. Seeing as it is convention to spend these points this way and the armory shows this, we will work from this basis.
So let's remove the 2/5 Aggression from the contributions so that we can get a better base view of what to do with these two points:
0.28379637529223949478860040397615 = 1.06(x)
0.28379637529223949478860040397615 / 1.06 = x
0.26773242952098065546094377733585 = x
DAMAGE WITHOUT LAST TWO TALENT POINTS
Eviscerate 599384.90566037735849056603773552 (0.26773242952098065546094377733585 * 2238746)
Rupture 130,656 (no change)
So, then, we can get 3% increased damage per point with Eviscerate or 15% increased damage per point with Rupture.
Increase in overall damage % per point then turns out to be:
Aggression: 0.80319728856294196638283133200729% (17981.547169811320754716981132065)
Blood Spatter: 0.87541864954755921395281108263287% (19598.4)
Rupture (Blood Spatter) is slightly higher here.
But then I noticed something else! This was on XT-002 Deconstructor. He might have been running around hitting bots or DPS-ing disproportionately on the heart phases, etc. The parse suggests that his Rupture uptime was 39%! A) That's pretty bad and something to improve on, B) Nobody is doing everything perfectly, so taking flaw into account seems fine, too. Real world tests are best, after all. Sample size matters a lot, too, so perhaps we should crunch the numbers on more of these. Meanwhile...
So lets go check out a more streamlined fight and run the same numbers. I'll abbreviate things this time to take up a bit less space. I'll take Ignis since they 1-shot him, presumably meaning they had the fight under control enough to keep things relatively tank-and-spank with regard to the rogue. The Rupture uptime here was 65%. Still not great, but this should show a better reason for my initial concern.
Damage per talent point?
12719.716981132075471698113207547 Aggression
15142.05 Blood Spatter
Draw your own conclusions. I think "advanced" might have a good point. There's something to try, here. The 4pc T8 bonus should make things more obvious as well.
One last caveat! These are taking in to account the bonus bleed damage granted by Mangle/Trauma. If you don't have this buff, these same numbers suggest 2/5 Aggression is better. The difference isn't as big as you might think. The last number set, for example, would become:
12720 for each point in Aggression versus 11648 for each point in Blood Spatter.
I am going to throw a wrench in your calculations, but not conclusions. Aggression and blood spatter increase damage of eviscerate and rupture respectively additively with other buffs. It means that a 3% tooltip increase is not going to increase eviscerate damage by 3%. Same with rupture and blood spatter.
Here is the math for these two abilities, assuming the person in the WMO had 0 points in blood spatter and 2 point in aggression, as well as still 2-piece set bonus from T7.
Let X be rupture damage without blood spatter, this value is known from the WMO report and equal to 100,947 for Ignis . Rupture damage with blood spatter is going to be X1 = X*(1+SB+2pt7+BS)/(1+SB+2pt7)=X*(1+30%+10%+30%)/(1+30%+10%). That is a 21.43% increase (not a 30% increase from 2 points in blood spatter). The benefit from two points in blood spatter in that Ignis fight would be 22578.5 damage.
As for aggression, taking out 2 points decreases eviscerate damage by a factor of (1+IE)/(1+IE+AG)=(1+20%)/(1+20%+6%)=95.24% (again this is not a 6% decrease because aggression is additive with improved eviscerate). The loss of damage from taking those two points from aggression would be 21392.9.
So based on the data of this fight alone, 2 points in blood spatter instead of 2 points in aggression would be a benefit to this person's dps. Also do not forget that it would increase his garrote damage as well. However, 1k difference in damage is not a significant increase and could easily be lost in RNG noise of this fight.
Last edited by Mavanas : 04/24/09 at 8:46 PM.
Reason: Readability
I am going to throw a wrench in your calculations, but not conclusions.
...
Obviously totally fair corrections to make. I'm usually a lurker but trying my hand at contributing a bit more, so I posted with a bit of apprehension I appreciate the correction and appropriate breakdown, though. That makes a lot of sense.
Additionally, I'd like to reiterate that a rogue with a better Rupture uptime will see a starker contrast in the direction that we're pointing. I'm at 2 pieces of T8 so far, but the 4pc bonus clearly throws things even more.
I have been running a 10_18_43 and believe it to be mathematically superior now and in the future with t8 bonus. It becomes even more clear considering the HAT proc nerfage, which raises the percentage of total damage for rupture versus eviscerate.
I've been avoiding HAT these last couple of weeks as the early progression through Ulduar has left alot of questions in my mind as to it's viabiity. However recent attemtps have calmed down alot so i feel it's time to go back to it as an Offspec for some fights. Hodir, Thorim, Razor and XT- and Razor all spring to mind as fights where HAT can excel.
Now, the basic 8/20/43 setup seems to perform well for me in optimal conditions, even with Low-vHAT based on spreadsheet simulations but i'm wondering about nHAT as a couple of these bosses seem to be particularly suceptable to nature / magic / non physical damage, as for instance, with my current gear / spec i'm getting 23-25k Envenom crits on hodir. I've been arguing with another due on another forum about nHAT and wether it's even viable enough out of the world of simulations to use on a regular basis. The one thing that makes me nervous is i've never seen a single significant set of nvHAT wss parses. Current testing i've done with the spradsheet says 'Maybe' but i'm not sure if it can be tusted in the fights i'm talking about.
Would the damage scaling of the bonues applied whilst fighting Thorim and XT's heart stack up enough to make nvHAT outstrip it's rivals on these particular fights? I understand the rotation's a little fiddlier which especially on Hodir could i doubt it's any worse than Mutilate (main spec), as it's just another binary trree / flowchart process: Is Rupture Up: Yes, Is SnD Up, Yes, Mow many DP - 5 - Envenom then.
Alright quick question, I havnt been HaT since it was ridiculous with multiple HaT rogues. First of all I dont have a good mh fist, my best weapons would be Sinister Revenge / Webbed death, do you guys think It'd be better to wait for a good mh then try hat or should SR be fine? I'm really curious to go hat again. I currently do like 5.3ish as mut. Also is the class list earlier on this page up to date. Should I arrange my group off of it or is there any notably changes since then.
For starters, the double HaT rogue bug has been fixed, no more freebies. The spec that I use, with KT's Reach MH, Hailstorm OH, lets me pull around the 3.7K- 4K dps. Instead of putting my whole spec down, you can look it up on the armory section, of the WoW database. My rotation is simple. Always have you tank, that will have your ToT, focused on, and build a macro, that casts ToT, on the person you have your focus fixed on. Wound, and Deadly poisons as well!
Hemo x 5, Rupture, Hemo x 5, SnD, Hemo x 5, Evis.
If you have a decent combo point counter, you will notice that HaT, will be spamming CP's at you. I like to have a high crit hunter or two in group. I also have Ghostly Strike built in my spec. When I am dps'ing on a boss, and find myself, in that uncomfortable spot of waiting for my 5th CP to proc, I just hit Ghostly Strike, get the 5th CP, and hit Evis. This is a nice dps rotation, providing that you keep you SnD, and Rupture up.
Now that dual spec is out, people can enjoy using this type of spec, being that they can have a nice PvP combat spec, for farming. I had half the server thinking I was an easy target and a soft PvP'r, because I would farm in raid spec. Plus, it saves you the constant respec fee. If you are like me, and farm all the time, then have a raid in the evenings. You should be happy.
nvHaT and vHaT are very close in damage. According to my last theorycrafting results, I've seen nvHaT being slightly ahead of 8/20/43 with LR. However since they nerfed hat/sec rates of hunters, I have not done much testing in ulduar. Besides I also found that possibility of people dying during progression makes mutilate a superior choice, at least as long as the target is murderable.
As far as Hodir specifically goes, I actually used nvHaT on that specific fight before, and it showed great results, putting me ahead of all other dps. However it's hard to base anything on one fight especially for a fight like Hodir, with random buffs. By the way,none of the buffs given by NPC favor nvHaT as opposed to vHaT, they increase haste and crit, and both specs should benefit about equally from these buffs.
If you do wanna try nvHaT, I advise you to be expertise capped and then stack agility and hit up to poison hit.
04/19/09, 3:20 PM
I appreciate the correction and appropriate breakdown, though. That makes a lot of sense.
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