Eviscerate is based off your attack power, not weapon damage, so you should choose your weapons based on their stats and their speed for poison applications. I think I would go with Twilight Mist and Omen of Ruin, Omen MH with wound and Twilight OH with deadly.
I wouldn't use hemo, except maybe right at the beginning for a combo point before everyone else has opened up.
I'm not sure about rupture.
Keep up slice and dice obviously.
It is also my opinion that as long as your energy is staying relatively high, you shouldn't necessarily wait until 5 cp to Eviscerate. The cps will be coming really fast, and if you wait til 5 there is a good chance you'll be missing some between the time you hit 5 cps and when you actually hit Eviscerate. You have to balance that with the potential energy loss from using finishers with less than 5 cps.
I'm praying it's not a bug and actually working as intended. IT seems incredibly OP at face value but it is called Honor Among Thieves. Rogues = Thieves.
Please no. The answer to making rogues the single target killing machines we feel we were always intended to be is not to turn us into a truly "one button class" for which we've always been mocked. After four years of combat being the only respectable spec for a PvE rogue, we finally get to play with a build that is different. And by play, I do not mean mash my Eviscerate key into oblivion. While HAT is certainly fun to play around with now and get our DPS jollies, if it is not a bug and this is how rogues are going to be, then I can't help but say the class dun got ruint. What is the point of leading the damage meters if I don't get any of the credit for being there?
If HAT is working as intended, it will make shitty rogues look like good rogues and good rogues will probably reroll DK's.
Hello , i'm new to the community and i want do add some imput, which is significaly diffrent from what people here expiranced.
First of all :
Originally Posted by Ashere
On top of that DT doesn't give a Combo Point on crit. Something the developers seem to have prevented on purpose. Interesting detail on top of that: FoK does give Combo Points on crit, and those who visited the rats in vanilla Stratholme might have noticed that it (occasionally?) seems to give 1 Combo Point per target it crits on!
We definitely need more data/testing on this though.
You are wrong . DT adds CP on Crit, and you are able to chain DT if you are lucky enough with crits.
Screenshot for proof.
But whats is more important, and yes i tested it , and i cant provied any screenshot to proof it since combat log doesnt show any HaT procs.
--- It DOESNT Matter how many HaT rogues i put in party i ALLWAYS get 1CP per crit, i tested many combinations, glyphs, specs, races. Didnt expiranced this bug ever.
PS. Also noone on my realm expirance 5% Crit bug with Dagger/First spec.
I Think "server" versions may be diffrent on diffrent realms ? Its theoreticaly possible....(kind of , stupid but yes its possible!).
Eviscerate is based off your attack power, not weapon damage, so you should choose your weapons based on their stats and their speed for poison applications. I think I would go with Twilight Mist and Omen of Ruin, Omen MH with wound and Twilight OH with deadly.
I wouldn't use hemo, except maybe right at the beginning for a combo point before everyone else has opened up.
I'm not sure about rupture.
Keep up slice and dice obviously.
It is also my opinion that as long as your energy is staying relatively high, you shouldn't necessarily wait until 5 cp to Eviscerate. The cps will be coming really fast, and if you wait til 5 there is a good chance you'll be missing some between the time you hit 5 cps and when you actually hit Eviscerate. You have to balance that with the potential energy loss from using finishers with less than 5 cps.
ty for the response... im currently using the 2 weapons you said and we just did a heroic pinnacle and i was #1 dps overall, with evis crits of almost 10k (in a 5 man!) only using hemo to open with for 1 cp + debuff, while i wait on cp's to stack up.. i was mainly spamming 4cp evis the entire time, unless a 5th point happen to come about then awesome
Something I'm highly curious as to regarding the HAT spec is how it will scale in the months to come. Considering Evis is one of our poorest scaling abilities, if this is nerfed now due to what we consider a bug will it have to be buffed in the future to compensate. I tried looking for the current evis scaling numbers to throw in some hypothetical numbers and failed.
The AP contribution for Eviscerate was almost doubled (from 15% to 25% for a 5pt Eviscerate) with the release of WOTLK. Improved Eviscerate was also increased from 15% to 20%. It scales pretty well now.
Going off of stats I would think the stalactite would be better overall but the speed of the paper cutter may make up for the stat loss because of poisons.
Going off of stats I would think the stalactite would be better overall but the speed of the paper cutter may make up for the stat loss because of poisons.
I'm a little curious about the argument between Evi and Rupture in the cycles. If you go by math plus armor bypass, talents and glyph, there's no way you'd ignore Rupture. However, with the bug and other rogues benefiting from Evi crits, it is possible that the chance to feed each other more points (especially the more HaT rogues are in your party) may outweigh the benefit of rupture. Even so, if the bug gets fixed or there are periods where you get so many points that more would be wasted, rupture is probably better then. Is there also a point where the crit level of Evi is so high it generally beats Rupture even with armor mitigation? While I can figure out the base damage of both abilities with my stats, I have no idea how to apply crit and armor mitigation to the situation.
DPS aside, there seems to be implications in this thread that adding rupture somehow slows down the cycle, which doesn't make sense to me considering it doesn't delay your attacks or anything. I don't see how lag has anything to do with it; it's not like pressing rupture is more or less laggy than pressing Evi. If I'm misinterpreting, clarification would be nice.
I was wondering if I should be using faster dagger in main hand and slower in off? or the other way around? Which poisons should I be using? Deadly/instant? Instant/Deadly?
Also, I want to keep Slice and dice up and just smash evis? Keep rupture up?
A few friends and I did some testing and we only received the extra cp on eviscerate crits. Hemo only ever gave a single cp on a crit to any of the 3 hat rogues we tested with.
I was wondering if I should be using faster dagger in main hand and slower in off? or the other way around? Which poisons should I be using? Deadly/instant? Instant/Deadly?
Also, I want to keep Slice and dice up and just smash evis? Keep rupture up?
Slow Dagger - MH, deadly
Fast Dagger - OH, wound
Keep Slice and Dice up.
Keep Rupture up.
I'm pretty sure the weapon reasoning would be that the MH will do more white damage, so you want it in MH for less misses and glances. You want wound on the faster dagger for more poison applications. Combine those together, and you get the setup above.
I'm pretty sure the weapon reasoning would be that the MH will do more white damage, so you want it in MH for less misses and glances. You want wound on the faster dagger for more poison applications. Combine those together, and you get the setup above.
Wound/Wound does more dmg.
Also I use this spec currently: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
It seems to work well. I would like to run some numbers on taking 2/2 Weapon Expertise and 1/3 Imp Evis vs. 3/3 Imp evis and 2/5 Malice. My expertise rating is only 28, I am missing quite a bit with my finishers.
Come on!. How come on one server HaT is buged and on other not. Read my piervous post.
DT crits adds CP on one server and doesnt on other is this correct ?
If i had to guess, I'd say it depends on Ruthlessness. Ruthlessness can not award a combo point on DT, and it may be that this code is "overriding" the combo point you get from the crit. If you have Ruthlessness, DT crits won't give combo points because the Ruthlessness effect prohibits ANY combo points from being gained from DT. If you don't have Ruthlessness, you should be able to get CP from DT crits.
That's my hypothesis anyway. At any rate, don't assume that it's bugged on one server and not on another. There are many factors to consider that may have caused the difference in results.
If i had to guess, I'd say it depends on Ruthlessness. Ruthlessness can not award a combo point on DT, and it may be that this code is "overriding" the combo point you get from the crit. If you have Ruthlessness, DT crits won't give combo points because the Ruthlessness effect prohibits ANY combo points from being gained from DT. If you don't have Ruthlessness, you should be able to get CP from DT crits.
That's my hypothesis anyway. At any rate, don't assume that it's bugged on one server and not on another. There are many factors to consider that may have caused the difference in results.
I dont think ruthless has to do anythig with that.
How would you explain , i tested with 5 rogues diffrent specs, gear, glyphs , we allways get 1CP from crit.
No matter what is it, Evis,hemo,ss,bs,muti.. anything will give 1CP. So DOES Deadly Throw, which my Screenshot prooves.
From top of my head wound/wound vs. Deadly/wound explanation would be that with standard slow MH you get just around(or about) poison procs from MH to keep the deadly 5 stacks rolling, and with (assuming person is useing 2 fast daggers) 2 fast dagger youd be hitting just as much to make Wound Procs (from your fast MH) better than Deadly, as deadly is ideal when you dont overlap it. ( no idea if overlap is the right workd ><), but what i mean is you can have more than 5 stacks, and with fast weapons youd hit so much that eventualy deadly goes to waste, wille wound/instant/anestetic dmg are increased by number of hits, so faster you hit > more dmg they do ( or to clarify same dmg, but faster intervals)
Is this spec that viable without a second rogue by the way? I have yet to test it since we cleared everything on Tuesday and am anxious to try it, all the rogues in my guild have rerolled because of how rogues were performing already and am just curious if its even worth speccing.
I dont think ruthless has to do anythig with that.
How would you explain , i tested with 5 rogues diffrent specs, gear, glyphs , we allways get 1CP from crit.
No matter what is it, Evis,hemo,ss,bs,muti.. anything will give 1CP. So DOES Deadly Throw, which my Screenshot prooves.
You are not the only person in this thread who has not experienced the multiple-HaT-rogue bug. Your incessant harping on it is not constructive or useful. Perhaps you should dedicate some time to trying to figure out what might be different between your circumstances and those of the rogues who have reported experiencing the bug.
From top of my head wound/wound vs. Deadly/wound explanation would be that with standard slow MH you get just around(or about) poison procs from MH to keep the deadly 5 stacks rolling, and with (assuming person is useing 2 fast daggers) 2 fast dagger youd be hitting just as much to make Wound Procs (from your fast MH) better than Deadly, as deadly is ideal when you dont overlap it. ( no idea if overlap is the right workd ><), but what i mean is you can have more than 5 stacks, and with fast weapons youd hit so much that eventualy deadly goes to waste, wille wound/instant/anestetic dmg are increased by number of hits, so faster you hit > more dmg they do ( or to clarify same dmg, but faster intervals)
If that made any sense!!
What you're saying is that there is a proc amount limit at which DP does not give any additional DPS increase (since it can only stack up to 5 times, and after that it refreshes it's duration) and any further increases in procs just serves to decrease the chance the stack falls off, whereas the poisons such as IP/WP have a linear proc-to-damage relation.
Originally Posted by ohnoes
Is this spec that viable without a second rogue by the way? I have yet to test it since we cleared everything on Tuesday and am anxious to try it, all the rogues in my guild have rerolled because of how rogues were performing already and am just curious if its even worth speccing.
I will be trying a single-HaT rogue this Naxx25 in a few hours, and having had a dual-HaT last night may be able to throw up some comparisons (anything will be purely anecdotal though).
I just had a couple ideas on possibilities for multiple CP gains with HaT. Some basic brainstorming that I haven't seen mentioned here thus far.
Has anyone tried Seal Fate? You can only spec to 3/5 SF while maintaining 3/3 HaT. But perhaps there is some mechanical flaw there.
The second thought is with Mutilate rogues - is it possible dual-crit mutilates can add 2 combo points to HaT rogues? I know it defies the intended logic of 1 CP/sec, but since they occur simultaneously perhaps it could sidestep the current implementation of HaT.
From what I have noticed in 10 man Naxx, with me as the only HAT specced rogue, I am still out dpsing a combat rogue in equivalent gear. You just want to make sure they put you intoa group with hunters, other rogues, enhancement/ele shamans, palidins or mages.
I just had a couple ideas on possibilities for multiple CP gains with HaT. Some basic brainstorming that I haven't seen mentioned here thus far.
Has anyone tried Seal Fate? You can only spec to 3/5 SF while maintaining 3/3 HaT. But perhaps there is some mechanical flaw there.
The second thought is with Mutilate rogues - is it possible dual-crit mutilates can add 2 combo points to HaT rogues? I know it defies the intended logic of 1 CP/sec, but since they occur simultaneously perhaps it could sidestep the current implementation of HaT.
I have a suspicion that "simultaneous" crits generate multiple combo points as you suspect.
I noticed during a recent run in CoT Strat that I was getting way more combo points than I should have (I went from 0 to 5 in less than a second, despite half of the group including myself not being in range to attack yet). I suspect these combo points came from the mage, who was using AE to clear out zombies. Whenever he would start the AoE, my combo points would go up like crazy. I suspect that I was getting one combo point for EVERY crit he got (because they were simultaneous), instead of simply one combo point per second per crit.
Most likely HaT is bugged imo, I do know that i have gotten full Combo points off of 1 chain lightning before during our runs. If that is how its intended to work then i am kind of shocked regardless right now till there is a hot fix or a new patch changing how it works the dps will still be off the wall for a HaT build. Even with a patch the build will still probably be a viable build even if there is less CP gain then there is now. Come on who would turn down free combo points with all the extra white dps you put out? Btw i will always use Rupture with all the extra dmg it gets from splatter/serrated blades/t7/7.5.
You are not the only person in this thread who has not experienced the multiple-HaT-rogue bug. Your incessant harping on it is not constructive or useful. Perhaps you should dedicate some time to trying to figure out what might be different between your circumstances and those of the rogues who have reported experiencing the bug.
Diffrent realms perhaps ? Its possible, not nessesary evry realm has to be same version.
It may simply be a latency issue with initiation of the 1sec internal cooldown. That would explain why you seem to get multiple combo points from AoE crits, and also why it's so variable in other circumstances.
12/08/08, 2:03 PM
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