Hmm... if someone can compile a list, and has a standard procedure we can follow, I'd be more than happy to assist. I've had enough spare time lately that I could probably knock out a good few abilities.
Sounds like I'll finally figure out how good an Arms warrior is. :]
Sorry to bring up retribution paladins one more time. Did some testing and it appears Seal of Blood/Martyr crits do not give CPs. The ranking of Rets at 17th is probably accurate, we aren't very good party members.
Still amazing to see that noone has seen the neccessity to program a simple addon (which I'm incapable of doing) to show the crits/sec of your individual raid, which is the ONLY THING relevant to know for HaT.
Everyone is still posting new rankings of class/specs which COULD do the most crits/sec, which is highly irrelevant if your Elemental Shammy or Arms Warrior just plain sucks or is half-afk in your current raid because his child is screaming the background every other minute.
I myself have a grade in Theory of Science and Logic, so you can't say I'm not interested in theorycrafting. But you need to differ between theorycrafting YOURSELF (which is a good thing) and theorycrafting SOMEONE ELSE (which is irrelevant, because your're only playing yourself).
Mahtasooma, the point of theorycrafting is to model for the most optimal DPS. For HaT rogues this includes finding the best possible group composition. You may be right, for each individual player it does matter whether or not their party members are skilled, however this is a discussion on what would be the best composition given that the party members are playing their classes properly. Crit/Second lists are highly informative even if they may not correspond to what everyone experiences.
Mavanas did post a small spreadsheet to calculate crits per second of your own group a while back, if you cared to search or read the thread.
Actually Aeternal from Burning Blade did a Recount addon, but it's severely outdated since 3.1. "Spreadsheet" doesn't sound like it's very dynamic during a raid.
I'll drop him a line and ask him kindly to update his Recount_HAT addon.
Or are there any other solutions / addons / available or coming up?
Even if you could come up with a list of the crits/sec of all classes, this still varies vastly per encounter.
If there's a lot of raiddamage and whirlwind (melees having to retreat), Healers will have most crits/sec, with less raiddamage, ranged DPS will top the crits/sec.
If it's a static encounter, the list might be correct, though it's still dependant on amount of raiddamage, and it might still be a different thing if it's a non-static encounter for healers OR ranged DPS.
Hmm... if someone can compile a list, and has a standard procedure we can follow, I'd be more than happy to assist. I've had enough spare time lately that I could probably knock out a good few abilities.
Sounds like I'll finally figure out how good an Arms warrior is. :]
Look at the following post, it has a list of abilities and an indicator for whether each ability procs or does not proc HaT. That list has to be updated for post-3.1. Here is a rough procedure:
1. Choose a class and an ability you are going to test.
2. Invite a person of that class to your group and make sure he's standing close enough to you.
3. Attack a dummy and obtain one combo point on it using your own ability, such as a hemorrhage.
4. Clear that combo point with a finisher and continue autoattacking the dummy.
5. Have the person who is helping you use only the ability you are testing. Make sure he uses it one at a time and reports to you exactly when a crit occurs.
6. Match his crit announcements with combo point generated, if any.
7. For aoe abilities, have that person place his aoe in a way that would attack more than one dummy, and try to identify if muliple crits can proc multiple combo points
8. For simultaneous abilities (such as stormstrike and mutilate), also test if both attack critting can proc two combo points instead of one
9. For abilities that can occur in less than 1 second after a previous special ability, for instance Heroic Strike, have a warrior queue up a Heroic Strike, then run out of melee range and then charge in and use another ability, such as Bloodthirst or Mortal strike, at the same time as Heroic Strike. Test if both abilities critting would yield 2 combo points at the same time.
10. For heals, you can test if both raw heal crits or only effective heal crits generate HaT combo points.
11. For abilities that have an initial damage and a subsequent dot, test separately if the initial damage crit procs HaT and if the dot crits can produce combo points through HaT
12. Report your findings
Look at the following post, it has a list of abilities and an indicator for whether each ability procs or does not proc HaT.
I tested tiger hunter pet with Claw this weekend as well as Explosive shot, and both did not seem to proc HAT. I'm wondering if this list is out-dated? I would like to find a good list so that I can update my addon accordingly.
As Mahtasooma mentioned, I did write a Recount addon, but it was a somewhat hackish first attempt at an addon. I rewrote it from scratch this weekend and is available from the link below. I still need to do some more testing with which abilities proc HAT and which don't.
Thanks for the addon. We did test that explosive shot and pets no longer trigger HaT, and it did not change in the last patch based on my own testing. Your addon is still helpful for my own understanding why HaT it not giving me the numbers I am expecting.
Even though it underestimates cps for survival hunters and pets, I was only getting 1 cps max at most on Ulduar fights last night, with 0.7 average. With that kind of combo point generation, HaT falls below both combat and mutilate at almost any level of gear.
I did not test it on Ignis and XT, perhaps on those stationary fights cps could shoot up to 1.5 to make HaT viable.
For reference, it was not uncommon to have cps above 2 per second before 3.1 when stacking survival hunters, which made HaT far ahead of other specs on stationary fights.
I'm going to add another feature when I get the chance to give you your 'true' crits per second based how many combo points you get versus how long you've been in combat (currently it's based off only ability crits + HAT lookup table), and, also, a bar that will give you a measure of accuracy based on how many combo points you actually got, versus how many the addon thinks you should have gotten.
For comparison, I was running Naxx25 last night, since we already had Ulduar cleared for the week. About half the raid was geared guildies, the other half PuG. The numbers I was pulling on some fights seemed lower, and I'll assume it's because of lack of raid buffs. On average I was also getting around 0.95 - 1.0 cps. My group comp generally consisted of Boomkin, Arms warrior, DK, and Arcane or Fire mage (not sure which). There were no survival hunters. In general I would always adjust my groups to whatever seemed like the highest cps people in the raid, and on average, I ended up being off by about 0.04 from max potential cps. There were a few stationary fights like Patchwerk and Thaddius where I got up to around 1.2 - 1.3. I still think in a more heavily stacked group with more geared people, these numbers should be higher. I feel I had a pretty limited selection.
The numbers you're getting for cps/sec does seems quite low.
I've been running combat lately so havent put much effort into 3.1 HAT. However, we had some troubles putting together a decent raid for hardmodes yesterday, so we ended up inviting alts and guest characters just to clear ulduar for the week. I decided to spec HAT for Ignis just to try it and it proved quite decent with a double boomkin+enh+elem group as you can see here Wow Web Stats (no cleave or fok unlike similar parses on wmo). Notice this was with blade flurry over 3/3 ruthlessness as I refuse to play Ulduar without blade flurry.
Being grouped with Goolik (0.49crits/sec), Cyclownd (0.35), Closetmonkey (0.33) and Zipo 0.64) I was getting 1.81 party crits/sec (total crits divided by fight duration). Some of those are abit over the values described in http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t38187-f...7/#post1195224, possibly due to Starfall hitting the add.
On fights like Ignis, Hodir, Kalogarn and Iron Council (fights where alot of people choose mutilate over combat) you can still pull some pretty amazing numbers. I'm yet to decide whether Im gonna try it out on Thorim and Mimiron hard as HAT ads some non trivial survivability and tricks to increase time on target. I think it's important to remember we're now relying heavily on casters for combo points, so the nature of the fight and the need for movement in particular (which is an issue on quite alot of the harder fights) will affect the performance of HAT alot. That said it also means increased synergy with bloodlust and fight specific buffs like Starlight.
Last edited by bural : 05/28/09 at 6:08 PM.
Reason: additional comments
Total crits divided by fight duration is not entirely accurate, since you're then not accounting for the 1 sec rule for HAT. Do your calcuations exclude your own crits/sec.? I assume you only included abilities that proc HAT as well.
Indeed, only abilities that proc hat are included and doesnt include my own crits. All I did was simply to sum up my party members crits with HAT "compatible" abilities and divide that with fight duration.
Im still under the impression that the 1 second limitation doesnt exist, hence I didnt account for it. Getting multible combo points of one ability like arcane missiles or FoK is the usual way of validating this.
I should prolly add I wasnt using clos to avoid Flame Jets although I should have, but more to the point I wasnt getting any combo points that way through Setup.
That said it would pretty much only affect the rate of the two shamans. This reminds me, the crit/sec rate of the elem shaman is likely higher than the values listed in mavanas post due to the resent buff to overload MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Lightning Overload buff hotfix.
Edit: Just tested FoK, Arcane Explotion and Arcane Missiles and Hot Streak Pyro. Both aoes can proc multible combo points and successive Arcane Missiles crits can add multible combo points just like Pyro following Fireball crits can add cps. As such the 1second cooldown on HAT procs still doesnt appear to be implemented.
Last edited by bural : 05/28/09 at 6:09 PM.
Reason: added overload bluepost and ability tests.
How easy is it to remove 1 sec HaT cooldown from your addon. I can confirm Bural's testing that the cooldown is not implemented. Also I looked at your table of abilities, and there are certain inaccuracies. For instance death and decay does not proc HaT. Can I simply change 2 to 0 in TopHAT_Abilities file as a quick fix?
Yes, you can simply place 0 in there. If there are any abilities that don't crit at all, just remove them entirely from the table (although it makes no difference, just for the sake of book keeping). All the untested ones I'm just guessing. I'll be sure to update it tomorrow when I get time (since I raid right after work til midnight Mon - Thurs). I'll also add an option to toggle on/off the 'per second' option, defaulted off. I'm still working on an extra bar that will display accuracy based on how many combo points the combat log says you got, versus what the addon thinks you should have gotten, but running into a few issues, like inconsistent amounts of 'combo point' events firing and no easy way of tracking ruthlessness procs.
Yes, you can simply place 0 in there. If there are any abilities that don't crit at all, just remove them entirely from the table (although it makes no difference, just for the sake of book keeping). All the untested ones I'm just guessing. I'll be sure to update it tomorrow when I get time (since I raid right after work til midnight Mon - Thurs). I'll also add an option to toggle on/off the 'per second' option, defaulted off. I'm still working on an extra bar that will display accuracy based on how many combo points the combat log says you got, versus what the addon thinks you should have gotten, but running into a few issues, like inconsistent amounts of 'combo point' events firing and no easy way of tracking ruthlessness procs.
you should just estimate ruthlessness procs, based on the number of points u have in the talent. over a long course of a fight, it will still be a good accuracy check.
you should just estimate ruthlessness procs, based on the number of points u have in the talent. over a long course of a fight, it will still be a good accuracy check.
There were 2 ways I was considering doing this.
1.) If you have 3/3 Ruthlessness, simply add a combo point 60% of the time after a finisher that can proc Ruthlessness is used
2.) If you have 3/3 Ruthlessness, always add 0.6 combo points after a finisher that can proc Ruthlessness is used.
I'm not a fan of RNG when trying to estimate things, so I'll probably go with option 2 and provide a toggle for how to estimate things like this.
As for reporting the Explosive Shot bug, good luck with that. I'm sure blizzard intended on Explosive Shot to not proc HAT in order to put HAT damage more in-line with other PvE specs, since Explosive shot contributed a massive amount of cp gen to HAT before, as well as pets did.
1.) If you have 3/3 Ruthlessness, simply add a combo point 60% of the time after a finisher that can proc Ruthlessness is used
2.) If you have 3/3 Ruthlessness, always add 0.6 combo points after a finisher that can proc Ruthlessness is used.
I'm not a fan of RNG when trying to estimate things, so I'll probably go with option 2 and provide a toggle for how to estimate things like this.
As for reporting the Explosive Shot bug, good luck with that. I'm sure blizzard intended on Explosive Shot to not proc HAT in order to put HAT damage more in-line with other PvE specs, since Explosive shot contributed a massive amount of cp gen to HAT before, as well as pets did.
You should use choice number 2 because it's easier. In the grand scheme of events, both 1 and 2 will give same result, except you will have to probably round 2 because it may not be a whole number.
P.S. Using option number 2 is not a way to circumvent RNG, you are still acknowledging the random nature of the results, but you are reducing the variance of the results.
Simple question; how does the Hemorrhage Debuff actually work? Am I correct in assuming it adds 75 base physical damage to your swing, and then is mitigated by amor or is there something else at play in the "up to 75".
An instant strike that deals 110% weapon damage and causes the target to hemorrhage, increasing any Physical damage dealt to the target by up to 75. Lasts 10 charges or 15 sec. Awards 1 combo point.
Test Dummy auto-attack w/bare hands; 357
Test Dummy auto-attack w/bare hands + hemo debuff; 403
Amount gained from Hemo = 46
Test Dummy auto-attack w/Bare hands + EA up; 390 (9.2% More)
Test Dummy auto-attack w/Bare handes + EA + Hemo; 440 (9.2% More)
Amount gained from Hemo = 50 (8.6% More - rounding error?)
Given that all 10 charges will be used in raids, assuming I undertand the debuff correctly, you'd be gaining roughly 500 damage ever x seconds (where x is the average time in between Hemorrhage - varying around 4 to 5 s in my last two days of HaT), that's essentially a >100-125 dps increase to raid dps. Given that HaT simulations for me put me 100 or so DPS ahead of other spec already, that pushes the margin well to favour HaT (assuming crit and savage combat debuffs already provided)
Simulations seem to place the value of the SnD glyph for me at ~30 DPS, while given the above - a straight-up 40% increase to Hemo debuff damage should yield roughly a 40 DPS increase - unless there's some other strange factors I'm not aware of...
I can at least testify that at my gear levels, HaT is competitive... both in Mavanas's simulations and Ulduar. Now I won't claim any stunning results (or even good ones), as Wednesday was my first raid night as HaT ever, and it does take some getting used to, but my DPS stayed roughly on-par with that of a comparably geared rogue I am typically neck-and-neck with. It certainly bodes well....
As expected from HaT, my ae dps was weak, my dps had a bias towards priority targets over parse-padding, etc. My CPS ranged from as little as 0.7 to 2+, depending on the situation, but mostly orbited around 1.
With a little optimization of my gear and rotations, getting used to HaT, and a little more experience with setting up the groups, I'm convinced that HaT will be my top DPS spec in my current gear. Raids next lockout I should have more of a chance to configure my groups to ideal HaT setups, and I'm already increasingly familiar with the rotation... I expect the numbers to increase quite a bit.
I can at least testify that at my gear levels, HaT is competitive... both in Mavanas's simulations and Ulduar. Now I won't claim any stunning results (or even good ones), as Wednesday was my first raid night as HaT ever, and it does take some getting used to, but my DPS stayed roughly on-par with that of a comparably geared rogue I am typically neck-and-neck with. It certainly bodes well....
As expected from HaT, my ae dps was weak, my dps had a bias towards priority targets over parse-padding, etc. My CPS ranged from as little as 0.7 to 2+, depending on the situation, but mostly orbited around 1.
With a little optimization of my gear and rotations, getting used to HaT, and a little more experience with setting up the groups, I'm convinced that HaT will be my top DPS spec in my current gear. Raids next lockout I should have more of a chance to configure my groups to ideal HaT setups, and I'm already increasingly familiar with the rotation... I expect the numbers to increase quite a bit.
I'm new to the whole rogue situation, I've just decided to roll one since its the only class i've never leveled and raided on. Subtely appeals to me, but I'm curious, checking out your WWS stat reports you use Hemo as your primary, do you ever backstab or ambush? or is it just Garrote, hemo, keep up SnD and Rupture?
05/21/09, 2:28 AM
I'm sure blizzard intended on Explosive Shot to not proc HAT in order to put HAT damage more in-line with other PvE specs, since Explosive shot contributed a massive amount of cp gen to HAT before, as well as pets did.
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