Well, I'm pretty sure we all have the same version.

My question is in your testing. Lets say you spec 0/0/43 yes I know you have extra points, they don't matter. You have HaT all that matters for the testing.

You go and hit a combat dummy with a Sinister Strike. You need to hit the dummy untill you crit and see if you get 2 points. If you get this then GJ you have HaT. Now grab a rogue with a 0/0/43 spec and add him to your party. make sure he is standing near you not on the other side of the world. Use sinister strike until it crits and check, did I get 1-2-3 points from this. If your doing those things and not seeing the extra points then I don't know what to tell you.

just a general party choice question for hat build. should I prefer hunters and ench shamans over rogues and warriors in the party? I have checked wws of our sham, there were lots of crits from totems. do they count?

Hope this doesnt get fixed today.. made maly interesting last night. We don't run WWS but during p1 with a spark and lust all 3 rogues were able to sustain 7kish dps.

We ran the group rogue/rogue/rogue/bmhunter/bmhunter. Sometimes I wasn't getting good Cp generation though. Could you all recommend a better group setup?

That is alot of what I am testing now is group set ups.

For obvious reasons some classes and specs will do better than others, Gear for all involved obviously means better crit rates in general. Some situations where a BM hunters pet isn't hitting the mob much will also weigh heavily on how effective the BM hunter is for your group.

I would grab WWS parses and start breaking down average crit amounts for boss fights and find the best classes. As I said if you have stand out Holy paladins in your guild that are great button mashers for healing they might wind up our best group adders. It should be noted that in my paladin testing there are things I have found.

1. Beacon of light does not effect our CP generation. I don't know if this is because the amount healed even when crit on the desired target isn't actually considered a crit, rather just the amount that is healed because of the amount on the previous.

2. Overhealed targets DO add CP, there for we can walk into a boss fight with 5 cp a large advantage in my book. The only encounters that this won't work on are encounters where the mob isn't able to be attacked until a certain time. IE Saph, Maly, Kel things like that. But most boss fights the healers can prime us up with 5cp at no cost of in combat mana for them.

Just more food for group comp thought.

Lilpenny

I would think you may want to spec for 2/2 SND and 3/5 precision when on your way to getting Blade flurry. Less worrying about SND uptime and more Eviscerate spam seems like better damage output in the long run.

Unless I am wrong.

Depending on how much hit you can stack. As for me with still a few TBC Parts because of limited Time I would drop under the Poison Cap so i prefer 5/5

Sorry, but no, it has happened before that different realms turned out to be running on different patches of the WoW software.
In addition, there are definitely differences in OS patches between the servers, as well as differences in hardware. Computer sciences are pretty exact, but there are plenty of reasons why some mechanics on realm X can turn out slightly diferent on realm Y. You won't find such things often, but they have happened before and may be happening again.

So which glyphs would be the best for this, if you aren't using the bug. (assuming it's not working as intended)

Evis/SnD/Rup?

Evis/Snd/Hemo?

Evis/Hemo/Rup?

Or what?

Evisc and SnD are mandatory, Rupture is also if you are using rupture, which you would assuming no bugged stacked HaT groups. If stacking HaT rogues and forgoing rupture, I would probably go with Vigor, as nothing else even seems remotely useful. You hemo far too infrequently for the Hemo glyph to make a perceivable difference in raid DPS.

I have not done any testing on this as of yet but people have posted as low as 20% white damage now, with HaT spec. i was wondering at what point SnD becomes less valuable, then an extra Evis. i skimmed through the posts and did not see this covered. If i missed it i am sorry.

Do people still say SnD is important to give us a chance for more crits for our HaT combo points. Because at some point the damage of an extra evis must come close to outweighing the extra damage from SnD. I don't really know where that cut off is. Or is there anyway to even guess at this without knowing group comp swing timers for the group and also crit rates of the group. Any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks and really sorry if this has been covered because i didn't see it

There is no point at which 36 seconds of 30% haste, increasing white damage and poison damage, will not outweigh an extra eviscerate.

Since Apps specced HaT before our raid the other night, I've been interested in this build. I have very little knowledge of the rogue class, so while I can't answer any questions, I can bring up a few points which I believe can increase the dps of this spec by roughly 5-10%.

1. If you believe rupture is worth keeping up (this has been debated here), a good spec would be 7/21/43 and glyphs be Evis/Rupture/SnD. Note: Rupture increases its value if you have 2pT7.

2. If you don't believe rupture is worth keeping up, a good spec would be 5/21/44 with 1 talent point to put in either Malice or Precision. Your glyphs would be Evis/SnD/Hemo or Prep. Both Hemo and Prep glyphs won't be worth a lot, but seem to be the only glyphs that would increase dps at all.


Thoughts about cooldown management:

Much like mages in TBC, the difference between a good HaT rogue and a bad HaT rogue will be getting the most out of your cooldowns. Obviously keeping SnD and/or Rupture up will be key as well, but proper cooldown management will be a fairly nice boost to your dps. Since rogues with this spec don't have many cooldowns, this basically centers around using Vanish and taking advantage of the talent "Master of Subtlety".

To maximize your cooldown usage (and assuming that a fight lasts for about 4 minutes, with bloodlust coming at 35%), you would want to do the following:

1. Start with a Premeditation followed by Garrote or Ambush and use Blade Flurry (Master of Subtlety kicks in and gives you 10% more damage for the first 6 seconds)
2. 20 seconds after that, Vanish, Premed, Garrote or Ambush again (gaining 10% more damage for 6 seconds)
3. At 35%, all of your cooldowns should be back up again and gain Bloodlust. Vanish -> premed -> garrote or ambush -> Blade Flurry (10% more damage for 6 seconds)
4. Use Prep. At this point, I'm not sure if you should Vanish again after the 6 seconds (to gain more from your blade flurry), or use vanish after premeditation is off cooldown. Either way, vanish -> premed if able -> garrote or ambush (obviously don't garrote if you use after 6 seconds as the debuff will still be up) (10% more damage for 6 seconds)

As for gear choices, the first priority should be to cap your hit with yellow attacks (8% or 5% with 3/5 Precision) and cap expertise (26 Expertise). I stress this point because it seems that having a combo move missed or dodged will really hurt your dps as relentless strikes will not give you 25 energy at that time (Am I correct on this or does it give you the energy regardless of hitting/missing/dodging?)

The other thing I'm unsure about is if poisons have 2 chances to miss. First, the weapon has to hit (affected by your melee hit %) and then the poison can resist (affected by your spell hit%). If this is the case, you would want to stack much more than the 5% hit required to cap the yellow attacks.

Anyway, just a couple of things to think about to try to max your dps. Let me know if I'm incorrect on anything and I'll change it. This is all coming from a feral druid point of view so it may be inaccurate.

If you have a mace in your MH, does Eviscerate count as an attack with a mace for Mace Specialization purposes? If so, would a build like 3.25.43 (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft) be worth considering?

You missed out glyph of Rupture mate

To Rutheford

I understand the idea of the spec you have chosen. I also was looking to use my two maces that I used in combat. However, you must keep in mind that you already put 5 points into close quarters combat. The 4 points you put into mace specialization could have been put into malice or other damage increasing talents. Two of the points could go into ruthlessness or into blood splatter. A big part of this build is choosing what things best fit your rotation and playing style. So make use of the 5 points in close quarters and use a fist/dagger.

It is being assumed for the sake of argument that rupture would not be used with this spec/glyph configuration.

If you aren't going to use rupture you would use prep glyph for 2x blade flurry.

If your build includes Blade Flurry that's a good point. With the 8/19/44 daggers build I'll be using tonight, SnD, Evisc, and Vigor are the best glyphs.

I'm very curious to hear your reasoning behind Vigor being one of the best glyphs for your build when you're not even taking the talent that the glyph affects.

Hi all, new member here and i have been following this thread closely.

One question I have is how the above specs (7/21/43) may differ for the 10 man versions where you apparently don't have as high a rate of combo point generation. Would it be better to take 2/3 in Ruthlessness rather than 2/3 in Blood Spatter in order to increase combo points?

Additionally, has Shadow Step been ruled out of these builds? I like the idea of using it to get back on target, and the 20% increase in damage on the next ability is an added bonus. Would sacrificing a point in either Ruthlessness or Blood Spatter and placing it in Shadow Step be worth it?

Thanks for any insight!

I honestly believe the loss of cp generation from rupture makes it less attractive even in non-rogue/rogue groups. Which is also why I'll be taking the spec I posted earlier.

As was already stated, the glyph only works if you have the talent.