Rahdik

No it doesn't. The attacks from Blade Flurry will suffer the 50% damage reduction.

 

Danen3

Even if that is the case, its still better to be saving BF for cross shield breaking regardless.

 

• Aldriana

I have enough info on Vis'kag to put in a rough estimate. I haven't seen much testing on Deathbringer. However, I can tell you what the conclusion is: they appear to be roughly comparable with a more conventionally itemized weapon one tier lower. For instance, Vis'kag 245 was showing up as basically a direct sidegrade to Serilas (232) last time I investigated it.

 

Xeis

I was playing around with the Gutgore Ripper and the debuff sent the Combat Dummy from 9.9m max hp to 7.9m max hp, and it never recovered the HP, but the ppm was horrific.

This does raise a question: Could you could lower the amount of HP a boss has significantly if it procs early on? Has anyone confirmed if this works on bosses?

 

sinapse

I believe that there was a conversation on this a while back. To make a long story short, it is no longer effective against raid bosses.

 

pinkshirtbadman

It actually is still effective against *Some* bosses, (or was as of a few weeks ago) it works on all 3 in Vault, both 10 and 25 man, and it works on Phase 1 and 3 of Mimiron, it appeared to NOT work on Algalon (it also does NOT work on Ony 10 or 25 or any boss in ToC in any mode). I had planned on doing so, but ended up putting off testing it against everything else in Ulduar. It seems this is still not intended so I wouldn't count on it, they likely just missed making a few bosses immune to it.

 

Belegûr

Assuming it works on even some bosses, do you think it would be worth it to equip it until it procs, and then swap in your usual weapon, or is the procrate too abysmal to make it worth it?

 

Moirin

Been lurking quite a while. Last I looked, there was a combat sheet on page 51. More recently switched to the weapon swap mut spec, but felt clunky, tedious and generally inelligant. I basically changed to a ruptureless mut rotation without the weapon swap, and am doing fairly well dps wise. If you check my armory sheet, I know I'm well over hit, just doing with what I have..

Been reading through and I'm trying to figure out whether to jem for haste and ap with my current setup.. I just don't know what mut sheet to go by.. I have mjolnir and will be swapping the legs for the t9 shoulders once I get a decent set of legs.. If someone could give me a link to the more recent mutilate sheet, I'd be greatly appreciative. Just things are getting more and more difficult to follow on the forums, spreadsheets harder and harder to find. Perhaps a new thread with most current spreadsheets would be helpful. I've been lost in these forums a lot recently.

 

pinkshirtbadman

That really depends on the fight and the level of gear in your raid, I found that on 10 man Vault bosses most of the groups I run with are so over geared for them they'll easily have the boss below any amount I would drop him with the Gutgore Ripper, on 25 It's probably still worth it, but not by much.
On firefighter during phase 1 it was worth it as about 1/2 the time it would proc prior to the boss losing the 500K it would drop him (10 man numbers). In several cases it would proc in the first few seconds, essentially dealing close to half a million damage in one swing. During phase 2, even leaving the weapon equipped for the entire duration several times I never saw it proc. I Did get the proc again during phase 3 (head) but by the time it was on the ground to Melee it surely would have lost the 400,000 eliminated (through normal means) during this fight.
I started a spreadsheet to check which bosses it works on and how much effect it had, but have been pretty lazy about actually following up on it, as I expect that even those bosses where it does work are not intended and will be fixed eventually.

You can find all of the files uploaded to this thread by clicking on the red box next to the thread title, just grab the one with the newest version number. The Mutilate spreadsheet on this thread has not been updated in a little while but is still very accurate, the major thing it seems to be missing is the option to specify a ruptureless rotation. You can also download the simulation sheet found in another thread, some people prefer one over the other, but they generally tend to give pretty much the same answers, although as a warning the simulation sheet is a little more complex and probably more difficult for most people to use acuratly.

 

• Aldriana

Well, all the most current spreadsheets are linked or referenced in the first post, so I'm not quite sure what the problem is. For a while there were beat releases spread throughout the thread; they weren't in the first post because they were, well, beta - not necessarily designed for the masses. Now that the combat sheet is stable, it's in the first post, and due to many complaints I also state where to get the most recent Mutilate beta in that post. So it seems to me that things should be pretty findable at this stage.

 

Moirin

I didn't realize the red square on the thread title has all the up to date spreadsheets, so yes, quite findable, and my bad. Thanks for the info Pinkshirtbadman, and thank you for your spreadsheets and time Aldriana.

 

Saluna

Can I ask why the blue quality gems are not in the list?

And also the gear from Totc10 man are not also present : Exemple Collar of Unending Torment...
EDIT : Erm they are under the alliance name, that's why I couldn't find it!

 

greenjello

I may be way off but my best guess is that the spreadsheet is a tool for maximizing dps in a competitive raid environment. If you're to the point, both with your gear and your mentality, that you want and/or need such a tool, you're probably also to the point where you will only consider using epic gems in your gear.

 

zejoker

is it still worth stacking arpen to softcap even if you dont have trinkets such as grim toll or mjolnir runestone?

 

Saluna

You are right, but it can also be used to know what would be a good upgrade, and thus I like to fill the spreadsheet with what I have and see what I can get better. For instance : Oh right I have a blue gem, I could replace it with an epic here!

But anyway, my main concern is : Is there a way to replace the alliance name of the item for the Horde one?

Thanks.

 

Rahdik

Except there is never a time where a blue quality gem is better than an epic gem, it will always be an upgrade. It doesn't make sense to put them in. Of course, you could always add it yourself.

Dinesh has a thing that works with Aldriana's sheet and will let you swap between alliance and horde names for gear. Or you can manually change them yourself.

 

Salazei

Quick question in regards to ArP.

Hard Cap 1400
Soft cap - Grim Troll (612 ArP proc)

1400-612 = Softcap of 788. Is this correct?

Thank you for your help, Salazei

 

KiraYamato

Yes.

 

mattipanduro

Ald, or anyone else interested, do you need me to sit on a target dummy for Raging Deathbringer data?

If so pleases tell me what you need me to do exactly as I have never done tests like this before; no trinkets (procs), gear/no gear, runtime for test, any specific rotation, any specific addons? etc.

Please excuse me for any spelling/grammar mistakes as english is not my main language.

 

Rabo

Me and another rouge in my guild both have raging deathbringer, and the proc seems to fall somewhere a little less than 2% pretty consistantly. I think the lvl 232 item comparison is dead on.

It is, however, fairly nice when you PVP.

 

Lure

I am getting some strange behavior on the combat spreadsheet (maybe). With [The Lion's Maw] and [Lionhead Slasher] and hack and slash I'm getting 7986 dps. With [The Spinebreaker] and [Steel Bladebreaker] and fist spec I'm getting 7883, 103 dps less :/

I don't have KS glyph or rupture/evis because we've been working on anub heroic so I use FOK and tricks glyph for adds. Maybe that has something to do with it but I doubt it. Also using 18/51/2 spec. I'm changing CQC -> HNS on the spreadsheet and vice versa for this test. Dunno what could be up with this. one would expect the .1 faster OH, and more armor pen to make the fist setup slightly better considering all the item levels are the same. Instead it's 103 dps less? Is hack and slash that much better?


p.s. you may notice a crazy mix of armor pen and agi gems on some of my armor, it's cause I'm primarily mutilate spec but I'm working on a combat set for certain fights. armor with agi gems is used in my main mutilate gear setup.

 

• Aldriana

So, there's a couple things that need to be said here.

First, at equal weapon damages and speeds, Hack and Slash *is* the strongest weapon specialization. That is, for weapons of a given DPS, a 2.6/1.4 setup of swords or axes will do more DPS than a mace or fist/dagger setup of the same speed. The important point is that this is usually balanced by the fact that dagger OHs are .1 faster than the corresponding sword/axe options; this speed difference makes up for the general superiority of Hack and Slash. This, as a side note, is why mace spec is weaker - because mace spec is no stronger than CQC, and doesn't have the advantage of fast OHs. (Or, in ToC, mace OHs at all. But I digress).

So: it's not a matter of Steel Bladebreaker being better because it's .1 faster; it's competitive only because it's .1 faster. I'd probably expect the axe setup to be a bit ahead, as my experience is that in ToC the improved scaling of Hack and Slash causes axe setups to pass combinations of other weapons that might have been more comparable in previous tiers. And, for instance, for me, I show a difference of about 40 DPS between those weapon options with my current gear.

Also note that 18/51/2 is a spec that favors Hack and Slash over CQC relative to 15/51/5 - as you're doing less finishers and relying more on poison damage, the fact that CQC gives bigger eviscerates while Hack and Slash gives more poison procs does work against you. If I swap my spec over to 18/51/2, the difference rises to 70 DPS.

That said, 100 DPS does seem a bit on the high end; my guess is that you haven't reoptimized your gear while swapping weapons. That is: you may need to resocket some gear to get you in the correct position relative to the ArPen cap. If you've already done so, than maybe you've just hit a part of the gear space where the difference is larger - I couldn't say for sure. While the difference is perhaps a bit larger than I might have expected, it is not so large that it seems totally unreasonable to me, either.

 

Lure

well that makes more sense. switching to more armor pen isn't really viable for me since mutilate is my main spec so yeah you're right, my gear isn't well optimized for combat. i only hit about 500 armor pen give or take currently.

 

loran

I don't believe this question has been asked before, and apologize if its a rather minor issue. Running a ruptureless combat build with softcap ArP + Runestone, I know generally speaking that 5cp evis's are the better option compared to lesser cp finisher. However, as its optimal to dump energy and cp's during runestone (+other trinket) procs, I was wondering if it is worthwhile to drop a 4cp (or maybe even 3cp?) evis at the end of the proc, assuming you would otherwise simply build to a 5cp evis after the proc ended.

I realize it might not be a huge difference either way, but I know timing CD's, energy, and cps for procs makes a clearly noticeable improvement, and I run into the aforementioned situation enough that I'd like to know what the best dps choice is.

 

Nerio

A quick thought/question about weapon swapping as combat and the value of haste. This is assuming the most effective method of weapon swapping for combat involves the use of the addon Poison Swapper or similar macros.

Would the value of haste then become distinctly more than crit, as opposed to how close they are with most gear set ups, and how difficult would it be to model? The only reason I ask is because it seems like with enough of a haste gain, you'll add an extra off hand swing before DP would fall off and raise the chance of refreshing it. I believe the value of crit raises with weapon swapping, since you're adding to a source of damage influenced by it, but the potential gain of DP 5 stack uptime seems like it could be more than negligible.