Combat and Mutilate Spreadsheets (Obsolete as of 4.0.x)

• Aldriana · 12/13/08, 8:23 PM

Note: With the release of 4.0.x, these sheets are now obsolete. The mechanics changes are large enough that they're not worth updating. I may or may not make new sheets at some point, but these particular sheets will no longer be updated.

Note: Please read this post in its entirety before asking questions about the sheet. Your question is very likely answered here. If you ask stuff that I've already answered, you *will* get infractions, and they *will* be vicious.

Q: Why do all my socketing recommendations sometimes change when I make minor adjustments to my gear?
A: Whenever you change what stats are on your gear and socketing, the value of all other stats changes slightly - this is why we have spreadsheets, rather than a static list of EP weights. The important thing to keep in mind is that the sheet isn't really recommending full sets of optimized gear; it's merely making a list of items that are probably good, and to do so it assesses them as though they're socketed with whatever your current top stat is. However, if your top stat changes, so does it's socketing strategy. So, for instance: as you socket more AP, the value of other stats (such as Haste) increases; hence, when you reach the point where Haste's EP value passes 2, it will suddenly start recommending haste gems instead of AP gems. All this means is that your top stat changed. In order to optimize in this situation, you simply need to play around with your available options and see which one yields the highest DPS estimate.

Q: Okay, I understand that, but I'm getting some really huge spikes in stat value, particularly with hit, expertise, crit, and agility. Why are my EP values jumping all over the place?
A: Many stats have soft or hard caps now. In particular, if the "base crit" and "crit cap" cells turn red, that means you are crit capping when one or more procs is active; this will result in skewed EP values for Agi, Crit, Hit, and Expertise. Hence, as you move back and forth through various crit caps, your stats will be jumping all over the place.

Q: Why isn't it telling me to socket expertise even though it has a high EP value?
A: Because by default, expertise socketing is disabled. Check the settings tab if you want to turn it on.

Q: Okay, I did that, and now it's telling me to keep socketing Expertise way past the cap.
A: Yep. It isn't doing slot-by-slot optimization. It's stuffing everything with the best stat, even when it doesn't make sense. That's why Expertise gemming is disabled by default.

Q: Item X is missing from the sheet, why isn't it included?
A: Because it sucks.

Q: So, I opened up some of the hidden sheet to edit gear/add gear/play with the modeling, and...
A: You broke something. Not my problem.

Q: Does the sheet account for...
A: Yes.

Q: Seriously?
A: Okay, I'm sure there are things I haven't actually accounted for - the sheet is by no means perfect. However, unless you have specific reason to believe that it isn't modeled, it probably is. If it's something basic, the answer is definitely yes, unless I've specifically mentioned it previously in this post.

Leto · 12/14/08, 2:03 AM

Thanks for doing this. It is very convenient for me since we have the same base stats.

I took a look at some different gear configurations, and I found a 20 dps increase by using thrusting bands over sinner's bindings and switching the appropriate expertise gems to agi. I assume the default is sinner's since that is what you are using.

Also, I took a look at the calculations section, and you don't seem to take partial resists on poisons into account.

The mitigation for IP should be around 3.2 or 3.3%, and deadly something around 5%. I am less sure on deadly, since I am not sure how the stacking mechanic is affected by partials, so it would likely require some testing or expansive WWS data.

IP however is basically a direct dmg spell, and ~3.3% is consistent with the information in the spell penetration ttt. This is particularly pertinent since your spreadsheet currently shows webbed death as the best main hand, when I believe Vulajin's shows it to be Sinister Revenge. Adding a % mitigation to the deadly poison dps closes the gap basically, at least to the point where I'd imagine it worth it to use Sinister Revenge instead for the improved burst potential.

• Aldriana · 12/14/08, 2:10 AM

Re: Thrusting Bands. Recall that when you switch to Thrusting Bands you need to get rid of a gem, as you lose a socket. I show them within 1 DPS under all socketing combinations. Though the recent findings about Expertise possibly not truncating may change that - more research will be needed.

Re: Partial resists. I'm not really up on current resist mechanics, so I just sort of did them from memory - the last thing I remember hearing was that partial resists cost about 6% DPS on a boss level mob, which is what the .94 term in line 274 is supposed to account for. If you have more up-to-date information, please let me know and I'll update accordingly.

Neto- · 12/14/08, 2:12 AM

Originally Posted by Leto

I took a look at some different gear configurations, and I found a 20 dps increase by using thrusting bands over sinner's bindings and switching the appropriate expertise gems to agi. I assume the default is sinner's since that is what you are using.

Did you remove one socket from the default gem configurations? [Thrusting Bands] doesn't have a socket, [Sinner's Bindings] does.

edit: Ugh, sorry, didn't see the response.

• Vulajin · 12/14/08, 2:22 AM

@Leto: partial resists really shouldn't differ between the two types of poison, there is no difference between how partial resists function on dots versus on direct damage spells.

Leto · 12/14/08, 2:31 AM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

@Leto: partial resists really shouldn't differ between the two types of poison, there is no difference between how partial resists function on dots versus on direct damage spells.

It might just be a difference in how the combat log reports them, since dots can't crit.

That would make sense, considering partial resists on a crit are reported incorrectly (it shows the lost dmg from the base spell value, not what was actually lost from the potential full crit dmg).

It should be 5-6 for both then, WWS just reports it incorrectly because of the combat log discrepancy.

That should be good then Aldriana, I see the .94 in there now. I was checking at the IP base dmg cell instead of the total magic dmg.

Silly me for forgetting to remove the gem for thrusting, doh.

anamericaninoz · 12/14/08, 4:59 AM

Hi,

First off, great spreadsheet. Even rough work is way appreciated. My first post here, so I hope I'm not in the wrong place, feel free to delete if so. I was just wondering on choices of profession for Mutilate raid rogues. I know you've been saying in other areas that Jewelcrafting is one of the better minmaxing professions, but going through some numbers I can't quite pick why. I'm currently Alchemy/Herbalism, and with sustained use of flasks and the Herbalism consumable, I should average around an extra +131.7 AP, according to the WoWhead comparison of BOP/Prof Only Benefits. According to my reading of it, the only profession that generates a higher value is Blacksmithing, at 80ap/40agi for the glove and bracer slots. Jewelcrafting comes even lower at 42 AP for the bonus for BoP gems v. regular gems (and similar agility gains). What am I missing?

Thanks,
Shangria

songster · 12/14/08, 5:57 AM

Originally Posted by anamericaninoz

Hi,
Jewelcrafting comes even lower at 42 AP for the bonus for BoP gems v. regular gems (and similar agility gains). What am I missing?

Also, you can use them in any socket, meaning you can replace a comparatively useless blue gem with a BoP gem with "red" stats, without losing your meta socket bonus or the socket bonus on the item itself. Say you're replacing a [Balanced Twilight Opal] with a [Bright Dragon's Eye]. The benefit is 38 AP, and you're allowed three BoP gems. So the total net benefit clocks in at around 100-110AP, depending on the mix of socket colours in your gear, set bonuses etc.

anamericaninoz · 12/15/08, 2:09 AM

I can see it being valuable before you've got the epic gems, definitely, but is that something you would switch out as you get access to better and better BoE or vendored gems? The meta socketing thing I hadn't fully understood, but that seems to me to only be a problem if we have a plethora of blue slots/reqs for meta gems, something I haven't fully investigated yet. Thanks!

• Aldriana · 12/15/08, 2:37 AM

When they release epic gems, the circumstances might change - or not. It's hard to say. And when they add epic gems, they may add upgrade for the other professions as well, so planning for the eventuality is hard to do. But lets take a look at the current situation.

Given that Agi and Expertise both have value right around 2 EP, I'm going to use AP gems for the following estimates, though in reality you might be using Agi or Expertise - I'm just trying for maximal clarity right now.

So, without JC gems, you need one blue gem for metagem activation, so you replace a 16 AP/12 sta gem with a 54 AP gem, an increase of 38 AP. You then replace 2 other gems - which have at most 32 AP on them - with 54 AP gems, for an added bonus of 22 AP each. hence, at the absolute minimum, you gain 38 + 22 + 22 = 82 AP, plus any relevant socket bonuses you may gain via the ability to use prismatic gems instead of red - in practice, the ideal gearset has 3 blue sockets, meaning that you gain an additional 6 agi and 8 AP from socket bonuses, bringing the total benefit to about 110 AP. Plus, the ability to use a different size of expertise gem makes it easier to come out even relative to the cap. Plus, it's in your choice of stat - it doesn't always have to be AP, you can add agi or expertise depending on what's needed for your gear.

So, the total benefit of JC relative to current gems is 110 AP, plus some ability to customize. How does this compare to other professions?

Blacksmithing: 64 EP in gems of your choice
Leatherworking: 64 AP
Enchanting: 64 AP
Inscription: 64 AP

...and so on. Or compare to what you're using right now - you're gaining 132 AP from *both* your professions, *when* you use consumables - and there are probably times when you don't. If you respecced to JC + one of the 4 listed above, you'd gain 174 EP - always, regardless of whether you were using consumes or not - and gain some extra customization in the bargain. So it's hard to argue that JC is not a compelling choice.

Also, even when they introduce epic gems, the benefit of JC - just by replacing a purple and 2 red gems with prismatics, without even worrying about the other benefits in terms of stat choice and socket bonuses and whatever - would be 54 * 3 - 20 - 40*2 = 62 AP, which is very competitive with other profession even without the other advantages. When you factor in those advantages, it's entirely plausible that JC will be optimal even once epic gems are introduced. But until that happens, we can't really say for sure - all we can do is work with what's best right now, and at the moment that's JC by a significant margin.

anamericaninoz · 12/15/08, 7:49 AM

Thanks so much for the clarification! Going from previous sources listed on these forums and in WoWWiki, it was a bit confusing. But that all makes sense. Now I just have to man up and switch professions

Thanks again!

Amerilina · 12/15/08, 2:54 PM

Aldriana, So far I have not Found any real issues with this sheet. Honestly with the exception of 2 items I don't really see many differences from Vulajin's Spreadsheet in Terms of gear I found to be best in slot. I have been slowly trying to work through your Calcs page to see if there is anything that stands out. If you could give me an overview of what you are doing in the Calcs page, so I can compare it to what I am interpreting your intent to be with the Calcs it may aid in flushing out any bugs.

I did have to make a Gems lookup for the sheet manually change them is a bit cumbersome to me. I will try to play with it more in the next few days and give you some real feedback on the sheet.

Neto- · 12/15/08, 3:15 PM

Originally Posted by Amerilina

Honestly with the exception of 2 items I don't really see many differences from Vulajin's Spreadsheet in Terms of gear I found to be best in slot.

From what I've seen, the major differences between both spreadsheets is that Aldriana's seems to have a different approach to the Deadly Poison calculations (which is why Webbed Death is rated higher in his), and the fact that agility gems are actually better than attack power gems. If possible, could you list the reasons why the latter happens? Did something change, or is it just gear scaling?

Edit: So, I "hacked" the spreadsheet, input all my gear, and the spreadsheet is rating attack power gems slightly better than agility gems (2.47 DPS increase by changing 16 agility to 32 AP), so that answers my question, I guess. I also noticed after messing with my weapon speeds that the faster the weapons are, the better agility gets, and the slower, the better AP gets, so it's definitely a factor as my MH is 1.8 and WD is 1.4.

• Aldriana · 12/16/08, 7:08 AM

So, gear scaling certainly has something to do with it - the more AP you get, the more other stats are worth. But I think the larger effect - in terms of the increased value of crit and hence agi - is the more sophisticated cycle modeling. I can't absolutely swear as to what Vulajin's sheet is doing, since I haven't looked it over any detail for quite some time. But my impression is that it operates under the philosophy that you're doing a relatively static rotation of rupture followed by a fixed number of envenoms, which doesn't really accurately reflect what one actually does. Rather, you Envenom until Rupture drops, and then you Rupture again. This may be 1 envenom, this may be 3 envenoms. And, moreover, not all of those envenoms are created equal. If you only have done one Mutilate since you last envenoms, odds are you're going to have less poison than if you did 2 Mutilates, a rupture, and another mutilate since the last time you envenomed - hence, the resulting envenom, even at the same number of combo points, will tend to do less damage.

Hence, the major differences in this sheet are as follows: 1), as noted, it pays a lot more attention to Deadly Poison restacking, the resulting Deadly Poison damage, and the effects on Envenom damage, and 2) the cycles are somewhat more dynamic - this sheet uses what I've been thinking of as a "4+Mut cycle". That is, in addition to doing 4+ CPs per finisher, you also do 4+ mutilates per Rupture. As a rough approximation: after 3 Mutilates, odds are it's only been 15-18 seconds, and your last Rupture probably isn't down yet; as such, you're going to do 4+ finishers until you've done at least 4 Mutilates, whether that's:

2 Mutilates, Envenom, 2 Mutilates

or

Mutilate, Envenom, Mutilate, Envenom, Mutilate, Envenom, 2xMutilate

Now, this is probably somewhat of an oversimplification, but I think it's a better assumption than what we've been using. This has interesting side effects, such as the fact that your Ruptures are relatively more likely to be 5pt while your Envenoms are relatively more likely to be 4-pt. This has various implications as to where your damage is coming from, and how much you actually do, and how much you benefit from each stat.

Now, is it ultimately more accurate? Hard to say. I certainly think so, or I wouldn't have bothered, but at the very least it's an alternate take on the gearing situation. And, ultimately, the only difference of significance is that this sheet recommends Webbed Death rather than Sinister Revenge, so it's not like we're talking major differences here.

In terms of a more in-depth walkthrough - that will have to wait till tomorrow, as it's getting rather late tonight.

Leto · 12/16/08, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Neto-

Edit: So, I "hacked" the spreadsheet, input all my gear, and the spreadsheet is rating attack power gems slightly better than agility gems (2.47 DPS increase by changing 16 agility to 32 AP), so that answers my question, I guess. I also noticed after messing with my weapon speeds that the faster the weapons are, the better agility gets, and the slower, the better AP gets, so it's definitely a factor as my MH is 1.8 and WD is 1.4.

I think the higher AP that Aldriana mentioned is the main cause. With the optimal gear, except using Sinister Revenge instead of Webbed Death, I still saw a dps increase using agi gems over ap, though it was very marginal.