if i want to try ip/ip/evis set up, should i go buy a librarian paper cutter for OH or can i use sinister revenge? I have webbed death for MH but dont got any other faster dagger for OH. Also, does WB > Murder for Oh by a lot?

mh i didn't find something about it (only old discussion about), so my question is since snd has now 40% haste, would be 2 pieces of t6 maybe again worthy?

i see again few rogues running around with bracers/belt
anyone checked it out?

The fact that you get 40% base haste from SnD now doesn't make an extra 10% on top of that from 2pc T6 any more or less valuable. You probably see people running 2pc because they've had bad luck with drops of either bracers or belt. I know that I personally didn't replace mine until after we completed Sarth+3D.

The 2/8 T6 set bonus does increase the value of wearing T6 pieces, and I did so myself for a while; however, my recollection is that once you have level 80 epics for all T6 slots, it no longer makes sense to try to hold onto that set bonus - the stats on level 70 epics are just too low to justify holding onto that set bonus.

Replacing [Dragonfriend Bracers] and [Stalk-Skin Belt] with [Slayer's Bracers] and [Slayer's Belt] is netting me almost 90 DPS increase on the spreadsheet. Dropping down to 10 DPS increase if I replace the Dragonfriend with [Sinner's Bindings]. My guess is it depends on your gear level and buffs available to you, but it is definitely showing up as an increase.

This is on Vulajin's 4.7 sheet, btw. I've not yet plugged these into your sheet just yet(i'll do that later just to be sure), but I can't imagine there would be a large discrepancy between the two.

As long as you don't have any of the BiS Belts, Boots, Bracers, then wearing 2pc T6 is probably a upgrade. Depending on your gear of course.

With BiS, any combination of T6 Belt/Boots/Bracers is a ~~20-25 dps downgrade.
I wonder, how the 3.1 changes might affect this, mainly LR increasing the value of haste.
While Ulduar will most likely bring upgrades, until then we need to take every advantage we got.

I believe swapping your weapons also resets your normal attack swing timers, though. So if you factored in the clipped melee attacks, it's probably more harmful than beneficial.

Right, so I would swap 2 times every 20 seconds. Once for envenom, and once for the mutilate immediately following. Since the reset could happen at any time in the swingtimer it would essentially act as if I would miss out on 1 autoswing from the MH and offhand per 20 seconds. Does the increase from mutilate and main hand white damage overcome this?

You should be Envenoming more than once every 20s. If you get an Ruthlessness Proc followed by a crit Mutilate, I think it's shown that you should pool until the previous Envenom buff (if any) goes away, and then Envenom again.

Let's take an empirical approach. For simplicity's sake we'll assume 2 mutilates per finisher and a 4+R/4+E cycle with no additional finishers. This is not reality, in reality we would be weaving in a second envenom/eviscerate as often as possible. This skews the numbers as much as possible in favor of weapon swapping. Let us also assume two weapons of equal DPS to cancel out the white DPS changes that would result from swapping weapons other than the pair of missed swings. Let us also assume the fast dagger at 1.4 and slow dagger at 1.8, this also maximized possible gains from swapping.

Losses from swapping: 1 Slow and 1 Fast swing (on average) for each pair of swaps
Gains from swapping: 4xMuta with Slow MH Fast OH - 4xMuta with Fast MH Slow OH

Gain equation: 4x(1.5*((1 Slow hit * 1.7) + .25 *(1 Fast hit * 1.7))) - 4x(1.5*((1 Fast hit * 1.7) + .25*(1 Slow * 1.7)))

Since we know the weapon speeds of each dagger and the DPS is equal we can express Slow hits as Fast hits times a coefficient:

1.8 / 1.4 = slow hit / fast hit

(1.29 * fast hit) = slow hit

Subbing in we get

4x(1.5*(((1.29 * fast hit) * 1.7) + .75 *(Fast hit * 1.7))) - 4x(1.5*((Fast hit * 1.7) + .75*((1.29 * fast hit) * 1.7)))

4x(1.5*(2.193 FH + 1.275 FH)) - 4x(1.5*(1.7 FH + 1.64475))

4x(5.202 FH) - 4x(5.017125 FH) = 20.808 FH - 20.0685 FH = .7395 FH

Now factor in the difference in crit rates and multipliers between mutilate and normal swings where x is base white crit.

Losses = 1 SH swing + 1 FH at base crit rate and multiplier = 2.29FH at base crit rate and multiplier

2.29FH * (1 - x) + x * 2.06 * 2.29FH
2.29FH - 2.29FH * x + 4.7174FH * x
2.29FH + 2.4274FH * x

Gains = .7395 FH at mutilate crit rate and multiplier

.7359FH * (1 - (x + .21)) + (x + .21) * 2.378 * .7359FH
.7359FH - .154539FH - .7359FH * x + .367493742FH + 1.7499709FH * x
.948854742FH + 1.0140709FH * x

The results are clear, weapon swapping is not worth the loss in white damage for daggers of equal DPS.

Well the 1.8s dagger has a higher DPS actually in his particular case -- it's 171 instead of 156.

Well, I have a question. I want to switch from combat to muti but I only have slow daggers. I have:

*Sinister Revenge (1.80 speed)
*Knife of Incision (1.80 speed)
*The Fleshshaper (1.80 speed)
*Rolfsen's Ripper (1.70 speed / only offhand)

Now I really don't know what weapon I should choose for what slot, or should I buy 2x Librarian's Paper Cutter?

My Armorylink (for gear): *push teh button*

I hope someone can give me some tips for raiding and for pvp.

I'd put Sinister in your mainhand and get an LPC for your offhand for the time being. Snag a Webbed Death if you can. For 3.1, it's looking like Sinister will be more viable than faster daggers in your mainhand anyway.

Thanks for your tips. Wouldn't Namlak's Supernumerary Sticker an option for the offhand? And should I go for double SR for 3.1?

[Namlak's Supernumerary Sticker] is one of those items that makes you think the itemisation guys are on crack. It has nothing whatsoever to recommend it for any spec of any class. It's not fast enough for an offhand, not slow enough to be a (3.1) mainhand, and it wastes a load of itemisation points on parry and dodge.

Actually, based on the name I believe they knew exactly what they were doing.

Maybe I am confused, or just haven't been keeping up with the forums as much as I should recently. But, I am under the impression that you want a *fast* MH weapon currently, for faster IP procs. Wouldn't the idea here be to put LPC in your MH and SR in your OH? My understanding was that until IP procs are normalized to weapon speed and since IP can proc off finishers a faster wep MH would be superior to slow wep MH (for fights longer than ~180 seconds). Of course once 3.1 comes out the best combo would be something like SR MH, WD (maybe murder) OH.


Edit: To be sure I just plugged it into the spreadsheet (both with BiS and my current gear, save for weapons) and if you only have one fast weapon (WE, Murder, LPC) and one slow weapons (SR, didn't try with others), currently you will come out on top with fast MH (IP) slow OH (DP) with IP/DP setup. I feel like I am missing some bigger issue that was discussed earlier, but I can't seem to find it.

Yes, since the 3.09 Mutilate damage change, you want a fast MH, slow OH if you can't have 2x fast.

However, since you can obtain a second LPC without much trouble, you might be better off with LPC/LPC.
At least until 3.1

New change that you get 25% more armor penetration per rating point.

A very brief look over the effects of this change, I don't see any items that are currently optimal becoming not so due to these changes. The largest effects seems to be to the Malygos25 BP and Sapphiron Quest necklace, both of which just get even stronger. Aged Winter Cloak is now a slightly more palatable option while waiting for the Kel"Thuzad cloak, and I haven't had time to check into how it affect Grim Toll vs Mirror/Fury.

Given that it's highly unclear how ArPen, Sunders, and Faerie Fire stack (see here), it's sort of hard to do ArPen modeling at this point. We'll need to do some testing on PTR to see if the stacking mechanics have been sorted out yet to determine what this means in practice; but yes, it is likely to increase the value of Grim Toll.

Glyph of Envenom -- Your Envenom ability no longer consumes Deadly Poison from your target.


Slow/Slow ftw i guess?