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Old 10/10/09, 11:10 AM   #1501
Feist-Mok
Im***est.
 
Feist-Mok's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Ysera
Originally Posted by Mehr View Post
Hello. I recently got the Blackhorn bludgeon (232) drop and I tried to look it up in Aldriana's spreadhseet, but it seems it is not listed there at all. I tried using the next closest mace weapon for comparison ,regemmed my character and switched to mace spec with 671 ArPen (both from gems and items). This along with the 4 T8 set bonus summ up to a DPS lower than the DPS the spreadsheet calculates for my old spec (5/5 CQC) and MH (Calamity's Grasp).Now, how can that be? The spreadsheet also states there is no sustainable dps-cycle with the Mace spec/mace MH setup.
Aldriana's sheet uses the Alliance names for items. What horde players know as the Blackhorn Bludgeon, alliance players know as [The Grinder]

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Old 10/10/09, 2:07 PM   #1502
Danzir
Banned
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Aggramar
small note: I found a slight input error for Cuirass of Calamatious Fate in Combat 1.3 (beta 4)

In the gear stats, 90 was under ArmPen, rather than Haste.

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Old 10/11/09, 6:32 AM   #1503
RemJay24
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Runetotem
^

mine comes up with 90 under haste.

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Old 10/12/09, 10:44 AM   #1504
wykedtron
Von Kaiser
 
wykedtron's Avatar
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Arthas
Mutilate 1.1 Beta

Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
In terms of known issues:
1) Rupture-free cycles are not yet implemented.
Is Ruptureless something that you forsee coming to the mutilate cycle? I find myself having significant DPS gains when using a 5PT envenom even when rupture has fallen off. So i guess i would call my cycle "low rupture cycle". Is there any data you would need from me or anyone else that could help you model this faster?

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Old 10/12/09, 11:20 AM   #1505
Kirothen
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Thunderhorn
So looking at the sheet, the highest DPS I can yield currently is with 2pc T9 245 in a low rupture cycle with blood spatter and 5/5 lethality. I respecced back to this and equipped the T9 shoulders for the bonus but am running into a dilema.

Do I keep rupture up as much as possible to get use of the T9 bonus for max dps or do I respec back to evisc only and ignore the T9 set bonus. The only gear item that really matters here is the shoulders (emblem shoulders, T9 or Heroic Snow Bandit) Seems to me that the ruptureless cycle will be better overall due to the burst damage needed from melee and not really having rupture up enough to get use of the set bonus. Just wanted to get some thoughts.

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Old 10/12/09, 3:24 PM   #1506
Yuntiff
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Stormrage
The T9 2pc bonus has an incredibly low proc rate (something to the tune of 2%). It is not worthwhile to keep rupture in your cycle just to benefit from that bonus. That having been said, use the spreadsheets. If they tell you to keep rupture in your cycle even without t8 4pc, that's probably what you should be doing.

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Old 10/12/09, 9:28 PM   #1507
Excuses
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Aman'Thul
Something I noticed with the recommended finisher is that regardless of what gear I input into the spreadsheet (except for 4pt8), that if I changed the talents and glyphs to favor rupture to the ones that favor evis, it will change to an evis only recommendation (as expected). However, this tends to result in a lower dps overall (around 60dps loss).

This makes it harder for me to know exactly when to switch from a rupture cycle to an evis only cycle. I thought that the 60dps or so difference would be outweighed by the fact that the spreadsheet assumes tank and spank for 5minute duration, where in actual fact, that's not the case in raids. Does that make the 60dps loss from the spreadsheet worth it due to the higher burst potential of evis?

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Old 10/12/09, 10:14 PM   #1508
Kirothen
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Thunderhorn
Originally Posted by Excuses View Post
Something I noticed with the recommended finisher is that regardless of what gear I input into the spreadsheet (except for 4pt8), that if I changed the talents and glyphs to favor rupture to the ones that favor evis, it will change to an evis only recommendation (as expected). However, this tends to result in a lower dps overall (around 60dps loss).

This makes it harder for me to know exactly when to switch from a rupture cycle to an evis only cycle. I thought that the 60dps or so difference would be outweighed by the fact that the spreadsheet assumes tank and spank for 5minute duration, where in actual fact, that's not the case in raids. Does that make the 60dps loss from the spreadsheet worth it due to the higher burst potential of evis?
Exactly, thats the problem. Although I yield a higher dps total with the rupture glyph and blood spatter, is the spreadsheet dps loss worth moving away from ruptureless since the ToC fights are mainly burst damage based. If you check out my current gear, the only reason that I equipped the 2 piece T9 was to get the use of the proc but if its that low, im better off going with the Silver Assassin gloves and going back ruptureless (even though I have never seen the spreadsheet say Evisc only even when runestone ArP capped with improved evisc)

I think what Im going to end up doing is going back to a ruptureless cycle since its easier to maintain and I will continue to see the larger crits from Evisc in a burst environment. From what ive learned from the spreadsheet numbers, its never the end all tell all when it comes to rotation but it gives you a really great starting point.

Lastly, what is incorporated into the spreadsheet as far as a proc rate on the 2 piece T9? If the math is solid, then even throwing in rupture for the proc (even a 1 point rupture) will theoretically yield higher overall dps. Consider Jaraxxus when switching to the portal. Throw in a quick rupture and get the proc while bursting the portal or the volcano.

Edited for further discussion.

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Old 10/12/09, 11:32 PM   #1509
darkcube
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Maelstrom
I ran into a really strange recommendation from this spreadsheet tonight. I just got a piece of i258 gear from ToC and the spreadsheet started recommending I do really really really strange things that I've never seen anyone recommend before. First Its telling me that I should replace *all* my gems with 10Agil/10Haste, including red gems. Secondly its telling me to change zerking for mongoose. And it's also telling me to use Wound/Wound instead of Wound/Deadly. I checked the roguecraft spreadsheet and it's also telling me very similar things. Here is a copy of the spreadsheet with the gear I currently have configured as well as my current spec.

http://www.happy-toast.com/ss/Combat_1.3_(beta_4).rar

Has anyone else ever seen anything like this? Also if you change the legs to the i245 T9 legs, everything changes back to recommending normal things.

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Old 10/13/09, 12:06 AM   #1510
Rahdik
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Earthen Ring
Darkcube, it's likely because you're using the 18/52/2 spec and all your AP gems. It's recommending you change everything to AGi/Haste for more poison procs.

With your setup right now I was getting 8165 DPS, by gemming AGI in all red and blue sockets (10 stats in the helm) and yellow with AGI/Haste, I'm showing you as 8175 DPS. Wound/Wound, High Rupture cycle.

Also, holy hit rating Batman. >.<

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Old 10/13/09, 5:07 AM   #1511
greenjello
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by darkcube View Post
I ran into a really strange recommendation from this spreadsheet tonight. I just got a piece of i258 gear from ToC and the spreadsheet started recommending I do really really really strange things that I've never seen anyone recommend before. First Its telling me that I should replace *all* my gems with 10Agil/10Haste, including red gems. Secondly its telling me to change zerking for mongoose. And it's also telling me to use Wound/Wound instead of Wound/Deadly. I checked the roguecraft spreadsheet and it's also telling me very similar things. Here is a copy of the spreadsheet with the gear I currently have configured as well as my current spec.

http://www.happy-toast.com/ss/Combat_1.3_(beta_4).rar

Has anyone else ever seen anything like this? Also if you change the legs to the i245 T9 legs, everything changes back to recommending normal things.
With your spec (improved poisons, hack and slash), high AP, and ridiculously high (too high really - there are much better trinket options available) hit rating; poison and hack and slash procs are making up a significant enough portion of your damage that haste has overtaken crit by a fair margin.

At a certain level of AP, haste, and particularly with swords/axes; mongoose catches and in some cases surpasses berserking even with a more conventional 15/51/5 spec, so it's not really strange at all to see that recommendation for you given your gear/spec.

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Old 10/13/09, 10:56 AM   #1512
darkcube
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Maelstrom
Originally Posted by greenjello View Post
With your spec (improved poisons, hack and slash), high AP, and ridiculously high (too high really - there are much better trinket options available) hit rating; poison and hack and slash procs are making up a significant enough portion of your damage that haste has overtaken crit by a fair margin.

At a certain level of AP, haste, and particularly with swords/axes; mongoose catches and in some cases surpasses berserking even with a more conventional 15/51/5 spec, so it's not really strange at all to see that recommendation for you given your gear/spec.
Yeah I do need to lose some hit but I haven't even seen better trinkets drop, except blood of the old god which doesn't exactly help my case . Been clearing ToC every week and still no death's verdict, and we basically stopped running ulduar and have never killed algalon, and the greatness card is a decrease so there's not much more than death's verdict I could get with what my guild runs.

The last thing nobody has addressed is the fact that it recommended I switch to wound/wound. Is this something that's viable? I've just never heard of a point where you should drop your deadly poison for wound in a combat spec.

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Old 10/13/09, 11:13 AM   #1513
Leto
King Hippo
 
Leito
Troll Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Running dual wound is very viable (savage combat uptime questions aside), and is likely ideal on most of the ToC fights considering you aren't attacking a lot of the bosses/adds long enough to stack deadly to the point that it out damages wound for the duration.

Rogue at heart.

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Old 10/13/09, 12:45 PM   #1514
tetracycloide
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Warlock
 
Quel'dorei
Originally Posted by sykoticc View Post
A rupture build might show up as higher dps on the sheet, but in a raid setting with target switches, Evis only rotation is much easier and would probably record higher numbers.
Why? The difference between continuous and discoutinuous combat is relevant for DP vs. wound/instant because DP has a build up time that reduces DPS when interupted. For rupture and eviscerate cycles the effects of time off target are roughly the same, lost CP and cycle interuption. What reason is there for these effects to be more pronounced when using rupture as a finisher? Sure, in a fight with a burst window where the target is either less vulnerable or completely immune to damage outside of a specific window would favor instants but in fights with just a lot of taget switches the effects should be roughly the same.

My vanity is justified.

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Old 10/13/09, 1:08 PM   #1515
greenjello
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by tetracycloide View Post
Why? The difference between continuous and discoutinuous combat is relevant for DP vs. wound/instant because DP has a build up time that reduces DPS when interupted. For rupture and eviscerate cycles the effects of time off target are roughly the same, lost CP and cycle interuption. What reason is there for these effects to be more pronounced when using rupture as a finisher? Sure, in a fight with a burst window where the target is either less vulnerable or completely immune to damage outside of a specific window would favor instants but in fights with just a lot of taget switches the effects should be roughly the same.
Well, consider that your secondary target might die before rupture finishes.

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