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Old 10/29/09, 2:28 PM   #1621
Rahdik
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Earthen Ring
As for weapon swapping, yes, you swap to a dagger (preferably a 2nd version of the one you're already using for DP) that has Instant Poison on it. You'll want to hit your weapon swap macro immediately after you Envenom, so that you don't hit the 1 sec GCD when swapping weapons. Then when DP has 3-4 seconds left, you'll want to swap back to your original setup. Ideally this swap will also occur after an Envenom, and then when Deadly is refreshed to 11 seconds, you swap again, after an Envenom.

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Old 10/29/09, 4:13 PM   #1622
Cybaa
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Nordrassil
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post

So, for SnD/Evis cycles, this is pretty easy:
1) If at any time, your SnD is about to drop, refresh it with whatever CPs you have.
2) Otherwise, build to 5 CP. If your SnD has less than n seconds left, start pooling. If you reach max pool with less than m seconds on SnD, refresh SnD. Otherwise evis.
Sorry, just a quick question and its probably stupid but where on your spread sheet can I find the n and m values?
I'm kinda new to spreed sheets so

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Old 10/29/09, 4:25 PM   #1623
Naeramarth
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Twisting Nether
Originally Posted by Cybaa View Post
Sorry, just a quick question and its probably stupid but where on your spread sheet can I find the n and m values?
I'm kinda new to spreed sheets so
Go to Format->Sheet->Unhide and select the Cycles sheet.

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Old 10/29/09, 4:59 PM   #1624
Nerio
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Rogue
 
Bleeding Hollow
Originally Posted by Rahdik View Post
As for weapon swapping, yes, you swap to a dagger (preferably a 2nd version of the one you're already using for DP) that has Instant Poison on it. You'll want to hit your weapon swap macro immediately after you Envenom, so that you don't hit the 1 sec GCD when swapping weapons. Then when DP has 3-4 seconds left, you'll want to swap back to your original setup. Ideally this swap will also occur after an Envenom, and then when Deadly is refreshed to 11 seconds, you swap again, after an Envenom.
I've been under the impression that you would almost always make sure to swap to IP before the envenom, so that you aren't resetting the swing timer during the envenom buff. I was also under the impression that you would make sure to refresh DP before envenom, so you're able to have your IP off hand during the envenom buff.

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Old 10/29/09, 7:05 PM   #1625
Mavanas
Great Tiger
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Lightning's Blade
Both ways work fine, the envenom during IP phase is probably better use of envenom buff in terms of dps, however having envenom up before the DP refresh is making DP less likely to fall off, thus reducing the variance of your dps. Some people dislike DP falling off despite the fact that overall dps might be higher.

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Old 10/30/09, 9:52 AM   #1626
Istaril
Piston Honda
 
Undead Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
I suspect the optimal solution to that problem (when to envenom) tends to favour envenoming before your DPswitch if your DP OH is weaker (limiting uptime of DP weapon as much as possible), and if you don't have 5/5 RS (energy capping/clipping envenoms is less likely) so you have a greater margin of error to time your envenoms. In these scenarios you'll probably want to delay your swap to <3s (from rough napkin math).

Then again, the cost of the stack dropping is bigger (more time spent with worse OH...), so I may have to play with those numbers.

With 5/5 RS and/or a good DP OH, I suspect envenom timing re: not clipping/capping and pooling to get a mutilate under an envenom buff is more important than timing re: weapon-switch. You can probably adjust swap-times on the fly; if envenom is up, swap at <3s, if envenom is not, ~4s.

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Old 10/30/09, 2:13 PM   #1627
Rahdik
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Earthen Ring
Originally Posted by Nerio View Post
I've been under the impression that you would almost always make sure to swap to IP before the envenom, so that you aren't resetting the swing timer during the envenom buff. I was also under the impression that you would make sure to refresh DP before envenom, so you're able to have your IP off hand during the envenom buff.
Swapping your weapon immediately before or after an envenom shouldn't effect the swing timer and either way your IP OH is going to get the effect of the Envenom buff.

I always swap back to refresh DP after an Envenom because that's the time DP starts to fall off during my rotation. I'm not gonna Mutilate at 4 CPs just immediately after hitting my weapon swap macro because that's a waste of 2-3 combo points.

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Old 11/02/09, 1:35 AM   #1628
Seditions
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Proudmoore
Using Mutilate_1.1_(beta_2).

I've double checked my gear selections, and the spreadsheet shows the following:

MH Base Crit Rate 59.43%
White Crit Cap 59.70%

While fully raid buffed and DC trinket proc, my tooltip was showing 65.37% (decimal might be off) during an encounter...is this a tooltip issue on the character page, or am I missing something on the spreadsheet?

Thanks!

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Old 11/02/09, 1:57 AM   #1629
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
So, there's a combination of two things going on here.

First, there is 4.8% crit depression against boss-level mobs. As such, when your tooltip crit rate is 65.37, your actual crit rate (which needs to be compared to the crit cap) is 60.57%.

As for why that disagrees with that the sheet says: it's because I didn't expect anyone to have trouble with the crit cap using agility procs alone (i.e., without using Darkmoon Card), so a number of them (notably Mongoose, but possible DMC:G as well) are averaged in for purposes of "average crit". So, briefly stated: yes, the sheet will disagree with your in-game tooltips. Yes, you're probably crit-capping to some degree, and you may want to put some effort into raising your crit crap.

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Old 11/02/09, 2:46 AM   #1630
Seditions
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Proudmoore
Thanks, I thought the 4.8% might have something to do with it. Also I meant DC as Death's Choice...since it is not an average crit proc, does the issue lie somewhere else?

Either way, I'll take off some AGI and throw on some EXP to raise my crit cap - I appreciate the help.

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Old 11/02/09, 3:49 AM   #1631
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Death's Choice is an agi proc, much like Darkmoon Card, and as Agility provides crit rate, averaging out that proc is thus going to misidentify your crit relative to the crit cap.

I should also note that 3% of the crit you get from buffs is a debuff on the boss and thus won't show up on your tooltip - so, upon contemplation, your tooltip crit rate of 65.37% turns into a "real" crit rate of 63.57. So it would appear that you're a good 4% over cap.

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Old 11/02/09, 2:01 PM   #1632
Gaviin
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Thunderhorn
Delete please. Sorry.

Last edited by Gaviin : 11/02/09 at 9:23 PM.

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Old 11/02/09, 4:10 PM   #1633
Seditions
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Proudmoore
Is there a way I can model being over 4% crit cap in the current spreadsheet? Trying to determine if replacing the Mjolnir Runestone for Blood of the Old God would be advantageous instead of trying to replace every agility gem I have with AP.

Your determination looks correct. Here is a breakout of several H Anub fight white hits:
(292 Hit and 3.25% exp)

HitCritGlancesMissesBlockDodgeParry
4.46%57.97%21.87%11.99%0.45%2.96%0.30%

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Old 11/03/09, 5:04 AM   #1634
Loot
Piston Honda
 
Human Priest
 
Sporeggar (EU)
Use the spreadsheet maybe to answer just that question?
If you are feeling like calculating here you go - Hit - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
The 1-roll system makes so the you can get miss, dodge, glancing, crit or hit and for example the bigger chance to miss is, the less "room" for the others are left so if you have enough miss and huge crit, you can easily get crit capped (i.e. there is like 55% chance left in the table but you have 60% crit, thats 5% wasted).

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Old 11/03/09, 8:14 AM   #1635
Tofuu
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Alterac Mountains
The problem with crit cap isn't limited to the idea that Crit Cap=1 - percentage of glancing (24 percent) - percentage of miss (your white miss chance)-percentage of dodge (if you are not expertise capped) + 0.048.

Most calculated crit cap assumed a 300 seconds fight duration. Given such a long duration, your glancing will always be around 24 percent. To give a realistic fight as an example, During phase 1 of four beast, my personal glancing on that 2 minute fight was sitting at 27 percent on one attempt 21 percent on another. If I use the dusk shoulder (from 45 emblems) and the greatness deck (I am excluding the 300 agility proc for the time being), I would be sitting at 49 percent crit unbuffed. On paper, I am not crit capped yet, but when I am having a 27 percent glancing due to fight duration being much lower than proposed 300 seconds, depending on the actual critical chance vs the actual glancing on a particular attempt, I could have reached the crit cap. The crit cap shown in the spreadsheet only becomes a realistic standard, and its value only "settles down graphically" if the duration of the fight is long enough (if you draw glancing percentage as a function of time in a fight, its values only settles down to 24 percent given long enough time).

In conclusion, my proposal is just to further stay away (more than just 1-2 percent) from the crit cap because there are many fights where we don't have more than a 3 minute straight up single target dps. When people switch to axe spec, this problem will of course disappear.

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