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Old 11/03/09, 4:01 PM   #1651
tetracycloide
Don Flamenco
 
tetracycloide's Avatar
 
Human Warlock
 
Quel'dorei
Originally Posted by ieatpaperbag View Post
The variance you mentioned works both ways, you'll have just as similar chance for them to vary lower giving a higher percentage of crits.
No, the variance does not work equally both ways because the stats are not normally distributed random variables. They are not perfectly moddled as bell curves, this model is an aproximation predicated on the assumption the one would never get close enough to a portion of the curve with significant area as to cause the normally distributed assumption to break down. This is not the case here.

My vanity is justified.

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Old 11/03/09, 4:54 PM   #1652
ieatpaperbag
Piston Honda
 
ieatpaperbag's Avatar
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Eonar
Originally Posted by tetracycloide View Post
No, the variance does not work equally both ways because the stats are not normally distributed random variables. They are not perfectly moddled as bell curves, this model is an aproximation predicated on the assumption the one would never get close enough to a portion of the curve with significant area as to cause the normally distributed assumption to break down. This is not the case here.
It really seems as if you're mixing two definitions/concepts now, I mentioned earlier that bell curves are in general a poor way to grasp white damage (unless you are looking at a single outcome and understand that it is independent of the other outcomes) which you agreed with, at least the un-() part. This discussion is also becoming increasingly irrelevant to the topic of the thread and should end, this will be my last comment on this topic.

I think the bottom line that most will agree with is that every swing regardless of if you are at crit cap or far below it is an independent single roll and that each possible outcome is independent from the others. Increasing the crit rating on your gear increases your chance to land a critical strike until you reach your crit cap any additional critical rating will not increase your chances to land critical white attacks. Over complicating it any more will not unveil anything that isn't already understood and just make it more confusing then it really should be.

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Old 11/03/09, 4:56 PM   #1653
Naihan
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Bronzebeard
So, I was frankly very surprised and quite pleased to see the introduction of expertise gems to the combat sheet, especially since my EP value for expertise s currently higher than most peoples': 2.02. I'm tired of pooling energy, refreshing SnD, and getting dodged on my next SS, wasting energy. I thought that the sheet was going to try to attempt to model that wasted energy, thus increasing the EP of expertise. It doesn't seem to be that way, so I have to ask, exactly why was expertise brought into the sheet?

Also, is it worth modeling that wasted energy, or do I just need to learn to pool less energy?

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Old 11/03/09, 6:21 PM   #1654
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
If you're wasting energy, you're doing it wrong. The point of pooling is to pool as high as you can *without* wasting energy - if you start wasting energy, you're pooling too high.

As for the ongoing crit cap discussion: there's a fair amount of misinformation and confusion present, so let me see if I can shed some light on the situation. First, let's get this out of the way right at the beginning: Fight length has no effect whatsoever on the crit cap. RNG has no relevance to the determination of the crit cap. You don't need to worry about being "near" the crit cap - either you're above it, or you're below it, and that's all the matters.

The important aspect of the crit cap is that it's the point at which it is no longer possible for a white attack to be a normal hit. If you have (say) a 24% glance chance, a 0% dodge chance, a 16% miss chance, and a 60% crit chance, that's 100% of the hit table - there is no chance of an attack being anything other than a miss, a glance, or a crit. So the probability of a white hit is 0%. And regardless of RNG, that will be the case - it is theoretically impossible for you to hit. So with this hit table, if you go hit something for a while, yeah, you may wind up with only a 20% glance rate... but your crit and miss rates for that fight will then be correspondingly higher, as no other outcomes are possible. This is the key point being glossed over: yes, RNG is possible, but these aren't independent events we're looking at. So if one of your outcomes is higher or lower due to RNG, the other possible outcomes must compensate.

Thus, if we're at the crit cap, and white hits are impossible, adding more crit doesn't change that fact - white hits are still impossible, and our crit, miss, and dodge rates are still... whatever they are. Hence additional crit doesn't increase our white damage, making crit rating and agility less valuable - hence, a crit cap.

On the other hand, if we're *below* the crit cap, and white attacks *are* possible, crit rating still does something for white attacks - it reduces the chance of a regular white hit. If our hit table is instead 58% crit, 2% hit, 24% glance, 16% miss, yes, it's entirely possible that we'll have an observed crit rate of 60% on some fight - but those 2% aren't necessarily going to come all out of the hit budget. The constraint in that case is merely that hit + glance + miss rate will need to be 40% instead of 42%, and this can involve more or less misses, more or less hits, and more or less glances.

Now, if our fight is short and our white hit rate is low, it's entirely possible that we won't see any white hits. But that doesn't mean that we *can't*. Sometimes, we'll see none at all. Sometimes, we'll see more than we expect. But on the average, we'll see the 2% (or whatever) we expect. And the important piece is: crit rating still increases the number of crits we expect to see, and reduces the number of white hits. And as long as it's still doing so, it's just as valuable as it always was, and, as such, we're still below the crit cap.

Look at it this way: the hit table is like rolling a 100-sided die. Normally your hit table is something like:
1-58: crit
59-60: hit
61-76: miss
77-100: glance.

Now, if I roll that die a hundred times, I may get more or less than 58 crits. But that doesn't change the underlying table - it merely affects what I see on that one fight. And the important piece is: I will roll some number of 59s. And they will be white hits. But if I had another 1% crit, they would be crits. So that crit rating is doing something for me. On any particular fight I may roll more 59s or less 59s, so the advantage I get from that crit might matter more or less - but on average, I expect to roll a 59 about 1% of the time, so my expected damage is that much higher if I get an extra 1% crit. And that argument applies no matter how close to or far from the crit cap I am, so the value of crit to white attacks does not change with how close I am to the crit cap until I actually hit it.

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Old 11/03/09, 6:45 PM   #1655
Darendan
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
<SRP>
Black Dragonflight
For some reason when i open the spreadsheet it opens in read only form. I have never used openoffice so if someone could please help me out it would be greatly appreciated

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Old 11/04/09, 2:04 AM   #1656
tedoubledy
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Dawnbringer
t9 question for mutilate

Aldriana,

I just had a question about t9 vs t8 for your mutilate spreadsheet. I have been looking at the mutilate spreadsheet and have noticed that t9 only provides a marginal benefit compared to that of t8 with my current gear. I think this is in line with what you have been saying in the past as the t9 bonus just doesn't provide a great edge over t8. However, I can't rule out the idea that the reason why t9 is only providing a very marginal increase for me is because my non set pieces are not high enough to give t9 the right stats to really maximize its potential. To put it in other words, I guess my question is if there is a specific point in which t9 (non heroic) really starts to pull ahead of t8 and if there is, is this turning point associated with a specific stat? I'm sorry if I'm not being clear. Please let me know if you need me to clarify anything.

Here is my armory link. The World of Warcraft Armory

I basically just inputted my current gear and substituted all of my t8 with t9 (non heroic) to see a marginal difference of 10.54 after regemming for AP instead of Agi.

Thank you.

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Old 11/04/09, 3:02 AM   #1657
Krogue
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Echo Isles
Is it just me, or has arpen dropped way below agility no matter what settings or gear I have?

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Old 11/04/09, 5:42 AM   #1658
Crevan
Don Flamenco
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Darksorrow (EU)
my question is if there is a specific point in which t9 (non heroic) really starts to pull ahead of t8 and if there is, is this turning point associated with a specific stat?
When comparing pure stat gains of t9.232 over t8.5, you get 15 Agi, 132 Armor Pen, 40 Expertise and 78 Hit, but lose 83 AP, 72 Crit and 131 Haste, as well as some socket bonuses. My understanding is that, unless you really need those points in Exp and Hit, it's not worth it to switch. You will probably be better off getting some offset items first, and switching to ilvl245 set when you can (VoA 25 makes it easier, with 2 set items available).

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Old 11/04/09, 6:15 AM   #1659
Jeppathum
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Moonglade (EU)
tedoubledy, I was in a similar situation, I recently swapped 4T8 for 4T9, but it was only a small upgrade, and even then only with an ilvl245 offset piece, in my case the chest. One thing that I did notice after the switch was quite a decent increase in my health pool.

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Old 11/04/09, 9:50 AM   #1660
Naihan
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Bronzebeard
Originally Posted by Krogue View Post
Is it just me, or has arpen dropped way below agility no matter what settings or gear I have?
ArP EP is by far the most situation-dependent stat in the game as far as a rogue is concerned. For instance, look at the ArP EP of the default armor in the spreadsheet; it's high. In short: you need to upgrade some pieces before ArP EP overtakes Agi EP; use the spreadsheet to find out when this is.

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Old 11/04/09, 9:57 AM   #1661
tedoubledy
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Dawnbringer
Crevan, I was actually looking into switching to the T9.245. T9.232 isn't even worth looking into since t9.245 barely provides a DPS increase in my opinion.

Jeppathum, I'm in total agreement with you. I also have the chest 245 offset in my bag that I'm waiting to use as I currently do not have the T8 shoulder piece.

The reason why I'm bringing this up is because I have accumulated enough EOT to start looking into acquiring the trophies to buy some pieces of the t9 set. However, I am also in desperate need of replacing a ring and trinket both available from the EOT vendor. Based on the spreadsheet the ring and trinket is the obvious choice in terms of a DPS increase, especially if I can get my hands on my T8.5 shoulders and put in the chest i mentioned above.

My fear is that while the ring and trinket may be the obvious upgrade now, it may not prove to be the case in the future as I acquire more 245 pieces and more of a particular stat that makes the t9 set more valuable. I just wanted to see if anyone had any insights into this before I make a decision to buy the ring and trinket.

Thanks for the responses.

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Old 11/04/09, 10:38 AM   #1662
Crevan
Don Flamenco
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Darksorrow (EU)
I was actually looking into switching to the T9.245
Ah, well I got confused there. Anyway, what I said is still valid - get a few ilvl245 offset pieces, and try to get legs and gloves from VoA 25. I did it myself, with rather nice results - I dropped rupture to make my cycles easier, and was at least on par with my previous performance, even without 4 pieces of t9.

About the ring and trinket - the emblems are quite easy to obtain now, so don't be afraid to spend them. I'd upgrade the trinket in your case, but you might as well check the spreadsheet to see what will give you the biggest boost.

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Old 11/04/09, 8:15 PM   #1663
Krogue
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Echo Isles
Originally Posted by Naihan View Post
ArP EP is by far the most situation-dependent stat in the game as far as a rogue is concerned. For instance, look at the ArP EP of the default armor in the spreadsheet; it's high. In short: you need to upgrade some pieces before ArP EP overtakes Agi EP; use the spreadsheet to find out when this is.

Sorry I forgot to mention that I meant the updated 1.3 version of the spreadsheet. When I downloaded it and looked at the values that were already from default gear settings, which I assume were about best in slot, ArPen's EP was 1.71 while Agi was around 2.00. On 1.2, my OWN current gear settings, which are lower than the default, have arpen surpass agility.

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Old 11/04/09, 8:44 PM   #1664
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Many things have changed from 1.2 to 1.3, not the least of which is that ArPen was nerfed since 1.2 came out - 1.3 has the updated values. So it's entirely possible that a gear set which made ArPen good in 1.2 does not in 1.3; however, it's also worth noting that ArPen is still a strong stat and usually worth stacking to softcap as Combat, even after the ArPen nerf.

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Old 11/04/09, 10:30 PM   #1665
Perforate-CC
Banned
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Cenarion Circle
Quick question. My friend and I are well into doing Evisc only cycles. We consistantly ToTT each other. Is the ToTT glyph > Evisc glyph in doing so?

Ty.

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