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Old 03/06/09, 12:01 PM   #241
LordeX
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Onyxia (EU)
Originally Posted by velocibrad View Post
I'd put Sinister in your mainhand and get an LPC for your offhand for the time being. Snag a Webbed Death if you can. For 3.1, it's looking like Sinister will be more viable than faster daggers in your mainhand anyway.
Thanks for your tips. Wouldn't Namlak's Supernumerary Sticker an option for the offhand? And should I go for double SR for 3.1?

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Old 03/06/09, 12:07 PM   #242
songster
Chief Passenger
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
Originally Posted by LordeX View Post
Thanks for your tips. Wouldn't Namlak's Supernumerary Sticker an option for the offhand? And should I go for double SR for 3.1?
[Namlak's Supernumerary Sticker] is one of those items that makes you think the itemisation guys are on crack. It has nothing whatsoever to recommend it for any spec of any class. It's not fast enough for an offhand, not slow enough to be a (3.1) mainhand, and it wastes a load of itemisation points on parry and dodge.

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Old 03/06/09, 12:42 PM   #243
Tinwhisker
Bald Bull
 
Tinwhisker's Avatar
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by songster View Post
[Namlak's Supernumerary Sticker] is one of those items that makes you think the itemisation guys are on crack. It has nothing whatsoever to recommend it for any spec of any class. It's not fast enough for an offhand, not slow enough to be a (3.1) mainhand, and it wastes a load of itemisation points on parry and dodge.
Actually, based on the name I believe they knew exactly what they were doing.


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Old 03/06/09, 3:22 PM   #244
Iscis
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Azgalor
Originally Posted by LordeX View Post
Thanks for your tips. Wouldn't Namlak's Supernumerary Sticker an option for the offhand? And should I go for double SR for 3.1?
In 3.1, an IP/DP/Envenom (IDN) setup will still want a fast offhand to build DP stacks from what I'm reading. This is because DP is not going to be a ppm, but still a chance on attack.

If you go with an IP/IP/Evis (IIV) setup, then dual SRs will be BiS (until potential Ulduar daggers appear) according to this post from Aldriana.

However, keep in mind that IIV is still undergoing a lot of tests, and parts of the build are broken.

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Old 03/06/09, 4:09 PM   #245
Joigahdenn
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Cenarius
Originally Posted by velocibrad View Post
I'd put Sinister in your mainhand and get an LPC for your offhand for the time being. Snag a Webbed Death if you can. For 3.1, it's looking like Sinister will be more viable than faster daggers in your mainhand anyway.
Maybe I am confused, or just haven't been keeping up with the forums as much as I should recently. But, I am under the impression that you want a *fast* MH weapon currently, for faster IP procs. Wouldn't the idea here be to put LPC in your MH and SR in your OH? My understanding was that until IP procs are normalized to weapon speed and since IP can proc off finishers a faster wep MH would be superior to slow wep MH (for fights longer than ~180 seconds). Of course once 3.1 comes out the best combo would be something like SR MH, WD (maybe murder) OH.


Edit: To be sure I just plugged it into the spreadsheet (both with BiS and my current gear, save for weapons) and if you only have one fast weapon (WE, Murder, LPC) and one slow weapons (SR, didn't try with others), currently you will come out on top with fast MH (IP) slow OH (DP) with IP/DP setup. I feel like I am missing some bigger issue that was discussed earlier, but I can't seem to find it.

Last edited by Joigahdenn : 03/06/09 at 4:36 PM.

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Old 03/06/09, 4:49 PM   #246
chalon
Founder of the Chalonverse
 
Chalon
Night Elf Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Yes, since the 3.09 Mutilate damage change, you want a fast MH, slow OH if you can't have 2x fast.

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Old 03/06/09, 5:01 PM   #247
Grunge
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Rogue
 
Kor'gall (EU)
However, since you can obtain a second LPC without much trouble, you might be better off with LPC/LPC.
At least until 3.1

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

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Old 03/06/09, 5:44 PM   #248
Shaker
AUGH CHAMPION TIME
 
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Human Rogue
 
Elune
New change that you get 25% more armor penetration per rating point.

A very brief look over the effects of this change, I don't see any items that are currently optimal becoming not so due to these changes. The largest effects seems to be to the Malygos25 BP and Sapphiron Quest necklace, both of which just get even stronger. Aged Winter Cloak is now a slightly more palatable option while waiting for the Kel"Thuzad cloak, and I haven't had time to check into how it affect Grim Toll vs Mirror/Fury.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

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Old 03/06/09, 5:57 PM   #249
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Given that it's highly unclear how ArPen, Sunders, and Faerie Fire stack (see here), it's sort of hard to do ArPen modeling at this point. We'll need to do some testing on PTR to see if the stacking mechanics have been sorted out yet to determine what this means in practice; but yes, it is likely to increase the value of Grim Toll.

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Old 03/06/09, 6:04 PM   #250
Tiga
Glass Joe
 
Valeev
Undead Rogue
 
Non-US/EU Server (EU)
Glyph of Envenom -- Your Envenom ability no longer consumes Deadly Poison from your target.


Slow/Slow ftw i guess?

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Old 03/06/09, 6:21 PM   #251
songster
Chief Passenger
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
Originally Posted by Tiga View Post
Glyph of Envenom -- Your Envenom ability no longer consumes Deadly Poison from your target.


Slow/Slow ftw i guess?
Unclear. The energy return from Focused Attacks is significant, and offsets the effect of the harder hitting Mutilates. I don't have a version of the spreadsheet that includes the Envenom glyph. What I do have is a version that has IP on a PPM model. What we can do is look at the effect of weapon speed using dual IP in this sheet. This has the same effect as the Envenom glyph (i.e. it makes your poison DPS stay the same irrespective of weapon speed), and so it will tell us how the weapon speed / Mutilate / FA interaction pans out.

So, I looked in this version of the sheet, and used Webbed Death (1.4), Murder (1.5) or Twilight Mist (1.8) in main hand or offhand. The results were that the MH has a slight preference for slow weapons, with about 1% total DPS difference between WD and TM. The offhand is completely unaffected by weapon speed: there is a total of 7 DPS variation between the three weapons, or ~0.12% damage. The harder hitting Mutilates are exactly cancelled by the increased damage from FA procs.

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Old 03/06/09, 6:25 PM   #252
chalon
Founder of the Chalonverse
 
Chalon
Night Elf Rogue
 
No WoW Account
And when you take into account that Sinister Revenge is 171 DPS, you can probably pretty safely say that with the Envenom glyph, 2x Sinister Revenge will be the best combo.

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Old 03/06/09, 6:25 PM   #253
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
The numbers for what is effectively glyphed Envenom were run here, and the findings were that the general approach favors slow MHs slightly and fast OHs slightly, though weapon damage is more important than either effect. This, however, presupposes that we continue doing 4+ Envenom/Rupture cycles, which may not be the case; I'd suggest that further discussion of these facts be moved to the 3.1 changes thread, as it has very little to do with this spreadsheet specifically, and there's some good discussion about that topic there already.

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Old 03/08/09, 12:43 PM   #254
LordeX
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Onyxia (EU)
Originally Posted by Grunge View Post
However, since you can obtain a second LPC without much trouble, you might be better off with LPC/LPC.
At least until 3.1
So LPC/LPC is actually better then one of these combos:

*Sinister Revenge (1.80 speed)
*Knife of Incision (1.80 speed)
*The Fleshshaper (1.80 speed)
*Rolfsen's Ripper (1.70 speed / only offhand)

or

LPC/SR

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Old 03/08/09, 1:18 PM   #255
songster
Chief Passenger
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
Originally Posted by LordeX View Post
So LPC/LPC is actually better then one of these combos:

*Sinister Revenge (1.80 speed)
*Knife of Incision (1.80 speed)
*The Fleshshaper (1.80 speed)
*Rolfsen's Ripper (1.70 speed / only offhand)

or

LPC/SR
Use the spreadsheet to check for your own gear. It will be quite borderline as to whether LPC/LPC is better than LPC/SR, and nobody can give you a definite answer. No other combinations are worth considering.

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