Combat and Mutilate Spreadsheets (Obsolete as of 4.0.x) - Page 188

sanchopancho · 02/20/10, 11:37 AM

With the new criting rupture i guess two questions come to my mind. Firstly will mutilate gain enough dps to cover the 6 sec envenom buff since u wont need any other significant change (maybe go full ap gems to get more rupture dmg instead of haste).Second we will probably need to go back on full ap combat instead of arp and try to get the biggest bonus out of combat with a high rupture rotation ditching arp cap once and for all. So new rupture will be > arp evis and the only thing to measure then is how will melee swings (full ap) perform compared to the the old ones (arp).

• Aldriana · 02/20/10, 2:15 PM

To those of you doing custom edits of the sheet: be a little careful about drawing conclusions from the High Rupture cycle (which one frequently finds oneself pushed into) right now - it was never really intended to be a super-accurate model of DPS. By the time I was writing it T8 was already on the way out, so I didn't put as much time into doing a really good job with it as I have for some of the others. In particular, it probably overestimates how much damage you do if you don't have Glyph of SS.

That said, dropping Glyph of SS may still be a viable option - I mean, it does hurt your CP gen, but it also makes it a lot more predictable, so when one is trying to do a carefully crafted cycle with super-high rupture uptime, it's entirely possible that the greater degree of control it affords is sufficient to offset the lower baseline CP gen. Rather than the complicated balancing act described as the High Rupture cycle, you can just do something like 2s2e5r. The problem is, that's not what it's actually computing the DPS for, so...

Anyway, I'll try to have an updated version available at some point, but as I'm pretty busy these days it's going to wait a few weeks until we're sure that particular change is going to stick (as it is only on PTR right now) before worrying about it too much.

Krogue · 02/20/10, 5:15 PM

So what'll happen to the Tier 8 bonus then?

Schmoopy · 02/20/10, 5:24 PM

Originally Posted by Krogue

So what'll happen to the Tier 8 bonus then?

Does it really matter? How many people are going deep into uldy to pick up 4 piece t8?

Tinwhisker · 02/20/10, 5:36 PM

Originally Posted by Krogue

So what'll happen to the Tier 8 bonus then?

The fact that T9 is actually easier to get than T8 right now should make this a moot point.

fnwicked · 02/21/10, 12:39 PM

Recently my guild has been raiding ICC25 without a warrior, so I volunteered to keep EA up for the raid. EA is very easy to keep up in an evis only rotation. With the changes coming to rupture and assuming that a high rupture rotation would be better how would one go about keeping EA up without sacrificing too much rupture up time? I guess a better way to put it would be does anyone have experience keeping EA up for the raid from back when high rupture was the more commonly used? Is there a certain rotation that works out better? It seems going for a high rupture uptime and a high EA uptime could get a little more complex than it would in an evis only rotation. I've just been using EA for a few weeks and I didn't have to at all back in TOC when I was using high rupture. Any input would be appreciated.

Safiyania · 02/21/10, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by fnwicked

Recently my guild has been raiding ICC25 without a warrior, so I volunteered to keep EA up for the raid. EA is very easy to keep up in an evis only rotation. With the changes coming to rupture and assuming that a high rupture rotation would be better how would one go about keeping EA up without sacrificing too much rupture up time? I guess a better way to put it would be does anyone have experience keeping EA up for the raid from back when high rupture was the more commonly used? Is there a certain rotation that works out better? It seems going for a high rupture uptime and a high EA uptime could get a little more complex than it would in an evis only rotation. I've just been using EA for a few weeks and I didn't have to at all back in TOC when I was using high rupture. Any input would be appreciated.

The basic approach that I took when running EA-Rupture cycles was not a great deal different than say running the "Low Rupture" or "High Rupture" cycles as Aldriana defined them, except that in this case one would prioritize the EA debuff over Rupture, meaning that you would be running essentially a "High Expose Armor" cycle where you build to 5CP and then decide based on timers whether to refresh EA, Rupture, or SnD. I would not expect you to find yourself using Eviscerate terribly often (especially if specced 20/51/0). I have not seen any math (nor done any myself) on exactly what would be ideal in terms of what the implications of early refreshes of SnD and EA would mean for such a cycle, because the simple answer is to get a warrior and avoid the issue all-together. I would be curious also as to whether or not supporting EA might not be better done by a Mutilate rogue, but that depends on exactly how much Envenom uptime it would cost said rogue.

fnwicked · 02/21/10, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by Safiyania

The basic approach that I took when running EA-Rupture cycles was not a great deal different than say running the "Low Rupture" or "High Rupture" cycles as Aldriana defined them, except that in this case one would prioritize the EA debuff over Rupture, meaning that you would be running essentially a "High Expose Armor" cycle where you build to 5CP and then decide based on timers whether to refresh EA, Rupture, or SnD. I would not expect you to find yourself using Eviscerate terribly often (especially if specced 20/51/0). I have not seen any math (nor done any myself) on exactly what would be ideal in terms of what the implications of early refreshes of SnD and EA would mean for such a cycle, because the simple answer is to get a warrior and avoid the issue all-together. I would be curious also as to whether or not supporting EA might not be better done by a Mutilate rogue, but that depends on exactly how much Envenom uptime it would cost said rogue.

Thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately our warrior tanks are very inconsistent when it comes to logging on for raids, and our dps warriors are hesitant and seem to take offense when asked to throw sunder into their rotation which in turn leads to a very low uptime. Hopefully our warrior woes are fixed between now and the next patch, but until then this gives me something to work with and think about. Thanks again.

Nufsed89 · 02/21/10, 6:02 PM

Everytime i keep trying to download the Combat spreadsheet it doesnt let me, i download it and it says complete, i open folder, it opens a new internet explorer then disapeers..

anything i need to do?

Liquoid · 02/22/10, 2:30 AM

Originally Posted by fnwicked

Thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately our warrior tanks are very inconsistent when it comes to logging on for raids, and our dps warriors are hesitant and seem to take offense when asked to throw sunder into their rotation which in turn leads to a very low uptime. Hopefully our warrior woes are fixed between now and the next patch, but until then this gives me something to work with and think about. Thanks again.

Most likely the DPS warriors are simply not aware of the way rogues have to keep up EA if asked - it's much more tedious than for said warrior to keep Sunder Armor up.

sp00n · 02/22/10, 5:09 AM

Also, keeping up sunder armor would be a net DPS gain even for himself.

Straight from the Warrior FAQ:

Q: My raid leader wants me to use Sunder Armor, I don't want to lose DPS.
A: Do it. It's a DPS gain for the raid, and for you as well if no one else is willing/able. No, it isn't a better idea for the Rogues to use Expose Armor.

[Random Grumbling]There's a reason most random raids suck. In e.g. Archavon raids, I haven't seen many warriors/rogues that know such basics. I'll usually end up exposing myself, because it seems most DPS warriors don't even have sunder armor in their action bars.[/Random Grumbling]

// Edit
Ok, to be clear, this is not against warriors. I've seen even less rogues use expose armor if there was no warrior present (read: none)...

poidz · 02/22/10, 7:48 AM

In regards to dps warriors and sunder, I've usually discussed it with our dps warrior, and depending on certain fights and situations we swap EA / Sunder duties. On quick burst targets i usually EA because getting the full 20% debuff will take him 5 GCD's, compared to our 2 (think Dreamwalker adds or similar mechanics). Obviously on sustained targets he will roll sunder as it will only cos him 1 GCD every 30s to keep the full stack rolling.

Also, is there a way to program into the sheet if you were on EA duty due to lack of warriors?

Mavanas · 02/22/10, 9:39 AM

Regarding sunders versus expose, there was a long thread discussing who should be sundering or exposing. The main findings at the time were that for fights 90 sec and longer, it was cheaper for a warrior to sunder (assuming a fury warrior). Below that, it was cheaper from raid dps perspective for a rogue to expose. The breakeven point will change depending on how geared the warrior and rogue are. It would be nice to redo that analysis given the current level of dps.

The major idea for calculation is that a fury warrior loses 6 seconds of all dps excluding autoattacks (used to be 75% dps, now can be higher). Then every 25 seconds he loses the difference between a heroic strike and a white attack.

In a steady state, a combat rogue loses an eviscerate every 30 seconds. A mutilate rogue loses an envenom every 30 seconds, which of course consists of both the direct damage and the effect of the buff. Rogues also lose snd time because it is assumed expose will be their first finisher, preferably at 1-2 combo points. That's the big picture, but there are also smaller details you can take into account: loss of procs on evisverate and envenom, including focused attacks and TAJ.

Neckface · 02/22/10, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Mavanas

The major idea for calculation is that a fury warrior loses 6 seconds of all dps excluding autoattacks (used to be 75% dps, now can be higher). Then every 25 seconds he loses the difference between a heroic strike and a white attack.

Could you elaborate on this? I don't understand why a warrior should lose a heroic strike to maintain sunder stacks when HS is just a modifier to next autoattack; you can do both at once. Unless you mean from the rage cost? When I'm playing my fury warrior it's a definite dps loss to get the 5 stacks up fast, but after that I just use the gaps between specials (i.e., both BT and WW on cooldown, no Slam proc) to refresh sunder if it has less than 15 seconds left.

Lifeleaf · 02/22/10, 11:58 AM

I think that thread might be a bit outdated as Rage flooding is a constant now. What he meant by the difference is the modifier.