Combat and Mutilate Spreadsheets (Obsolete as of 4.0.x) - Page 200

feryll · 04/22/10, 1:45 AM

Originally Posted by badgertgb

I dont think that makes sense. You shouldn't be energy capping with rupture OR envenom. As long as you have the envenom buff up and 4+ cps you should just be pooling energy, if you happened to get a 4p proc at a time when you already had high energy it is still better I believe to envenom as opposed to risking envenom buff downtime by rupturing. 4pc tier 10 makes it reasonable to keep up envenom for long periods of time (or with extremely small gaps) and the instant poison dmg is ridic at that point.

One thing that happens fairly often to me in this scenario is that I mutilate and end up with 5 CPs, just because the proc from 4 pc takes a half second to register it seems, and my mutilate has already been queued. I am not sure if there is a way to prevent this, but even so its not that big of a deal (the proc basically just gauranteed you had a 5 CP finisher, instead of having a 4 typically with no proc, and takes out any chance of having to mutilate twice if you got stuck at 3)

Basically I am pretty sure rupture spec is going to be less dmg almost all the time, though I would love it if they buffed rupture to where it was actually useful, as the mulilate playstayle has too few buttons (making distinguishing a good from a great rogue very difficult)

regardless of whether you think it's possible (and I will grant that on saurfang, you're never going to cap out on energy) i still get to the point where i am sitting at 80+ energy with 3-4 seconds on my envenom buff. now, I could smack another envenom, and get up to 15-18k. but if specced into bloodspatter, and with trauma on a target, I'd be getting up to (roughly) 3k ticks on rupture.

i agree that rupture in envenom as a "rotation" (I.E. 5e/5r always) is a poor choice, but eventually, you're gonna be energy capped, with 4+ cpmbo points on a target, with 3+ seconds left on your envenom buff. just enough time to rupture=>mutilate->envenom.

• Hellbor · 04/22/10, 9:08 AM

Originally Posted by feryll

according to the spreadsheet, there is only a 100-200 difference in DPS with my gear/spec vs. my gear (regemmed for ap/haste) 51/18/2. for movement heavy fights, or fights with a lot of movement, I get more burst out of 51/13/7; I also consistently out DPS rogues that are similarily geared that run 51/18/2.

however, i do still get energy cap issues in either spec between FA/heartpierce/ RS occurrences. I am more comfortable with 51/13/7. I gemerally pool to about 80 energy, then bottom out, and tricks another rogue. almost every time i tricks another rogue, I get pretty close to energy capped. I am also very lucky with 4 pc tier 10 procs; my record is 10 back to back tier 10 4 procs.

Why would you run a 51/13/7 spec and not pick up Blood Spatter? The other problem I see with 51/13/7 is that you don't pick up the TotT glyph. So even if 51/13/7 was more personal DPS, the lack of the TotT glyph is certainly impacting the rDPS. I'm not saying that 51/13/7 is a bad spec to run it just easier to optimize 51/18/2.

feryll · 04/22/10, 5:04 PM

Originally Posted by Hellbor

Why would you run a 51/13/7 spec and not pick up Blood Spatter? The other problem I see with 51/13/7 is that you don't pick up the TotT glyph. So even if 51/13/7 was more personal DPS, the lack of the TotT glyph is certainly impacting the rDPS. I'm not saying that 51/13/7 is a bad spec to run it just easier to optimize 51/18/2.

I have a stack of both glyph of rupture and glyph of TotT in my bag (i change them dependant on the fight, I prefer to use Glyph of rupture on fights where i have to switch to adds; dumping the last of my combo points into a rupture as i switch off the boss. However, what talents do you think i should swap out to get bloodspatter?
I am currently at 63% crit raid buffed, maybe I should drop points from cqc (though spreaadsheet says DPS loss, I can't see if it's even considering to use rupture)? also, how would i get the muti spreadsheet to calculate rupture damage with an approximate 30% rupture uptime, with about 90% uptime on the envenom buff?

(edited for clarity)

• Hellbor · 04/23/10, 9:37 AM

Originally Posted by feryll

I have a stack of both glyph of rupture and glyph of TotT in my bag (i change them dependant on the fight, I prefer to use Glyph of rupture on fights where i have to switch to adds; dumping the last of my combo points into a rupture as i switch off the boss. However, what talents do you think i should swap out to get bloodspatter?
I am currently at 63% crit raid buffed, maybe I should drop points from cqc (though spreaadsheet says DPS loss, I can't see if it's even considering to use rupture)? also, how would i get the muti spreadsheet to calculate rupture damage with an approximate 30% rupture uptime, with about 90% uptime on the envenom buff?

(edited for clarity)

I would take the points out of FF and put them in Bloodspatter. If you need the run speed increase you can always get Cat's Swiftness.

You are under the impression that using Rupture on add fights is giving you a DPS increase but there are various places in the Rogue forums discrediting this theory. Rupture is a better choice when you maximize uptime, i.e., tank and spank. On a fight like Putricide you would be better off using Envenom and then getting on the add while the Envenom buff is still active. When possible you might even be able to carry the Envenom buff off the add and back on to Putricide.

Enferno · 04/25/10, 7:45 AM

Mmm, don't know excel enough, how can i change cycle from "Eviscerate only" to "High rupture"? Thx

Tinwhisker · 04/25/10, 8:43 AM

Originally Posted by Enferno

Mmm, don't know excel enough, how can i change cycle from "Eviscerate only" to "High rupture"? Thx

The easiest way is to spec and wear gear where rupture is a DPS gain.

zindikasheen · 04/26/10, 11:24 AM

Hey I've been messing around with the current combat sheet (now that I have some 25ICC gear to fool with) and just wanted to clarify something.

At the moment I'm using Pyrite Infused and Whispering Fanged Skull for my Trinkets. Now I've been under the impression that for combat, Tiny Abom in a Jar is the BiS trinket. However, as of right now it is a minimal dps increase over Pyrite Infuser. Is it modeled correctly (I'm assuming yes) and if so, could someone give me some insight as to why it's so low on the list for me? At the moment I'm thinking it might be the way hit is modeled, since removing the pyrite infuser sends my poison miss rate to 3.08%. Swapping Pyrite infuser with Deathbringer's Will (217 dps increase according to recommended tab) results in about 100dps increase overall. Is this a hit issue?

I don't wanna spend any DKP I don't have too, since mine is so low compared to the rest of my guild XD.

Kroyfel · 04/26/10, 11:43 AM

Pyrite is that good for you because of its hit. If you're below the spell hit cap you should use hit gems regardless of recommendations until you're above it.

Besides that, tiny abomination in a jar is far from BiS for combat, there are about 3 or 4 better trinkets than the heroic version of it.

Edited for spelling.

Sculduggery · 04/26/10, 1:02 PM

Originally Posted by Kroyfel

Besides that, tiny abomination in a jar is far from BiS for combat, there are about 3 or 4 better trinkets than the heroic version of it.

I can think of two. I'm interested to know what the others might be.

Kroyfel · 04/26/10, 1:41 PM

Deathbringer's Will normal and heroic versions, Whispering Fanged Skull (heroic), Deaths Verdict (heroic) and Herkuml War Token all give me better DPS on my spreadsheet.

Yuntiff · 04/26/10, 3:49 PM

I've found that in 4pc combat BiS setups (with high rupture) TAiaJ comes out on top of everything except DBW because of its hit. Gemming hit instead of using TAiaJ basically knocks the ArP hardcap off the table and is usually a dps loss compared to just using the trinket to avoid the crit cap.

Edit: However, this would be subject to change based on whether you are BS/JC or Eng/JC. The 2 extra BS slots let you gem hit there instead of having to go the TAiaJ route.

Sculduggery · 04/26/10, 5:52 PM

Originally Posted by Yuntiff

I've found that in 4pc combat BiS setups (with high rupture) TAiaJ comes out on top of everything except DBW because of its hit. Gemming hit instead of using TAiaJ basically knocks the ArP hardcap off the table and is usually a dps loss compared to just using the trinket to avoid the crit cap.

Combat builds focusing on ArP start hitting that point long before BiS. TAiaJ became very valuable to my Combat set the second that it only shared rings/trinkets with my Mutilate spec. That much focus on ArP leaves little room for hit and expertise on gear resulting in huge value for a hit trinket even with EXP/HIT gems in all of my yellows.

Personally, I'm holding out for the heroic version.

giuseppe · 04/27/10, 4:25 AM

Originally Posted by Hellbor

Why would you run a 51/13/7 spec and not pick up Blood Spatter? The other problem I see with 51/13/7 is that you don't pick up the TotT glyph. So even if 51/13/7 was more personal DPS, the lack of the TotT glyph is certainly impacting the rDPS. I'm not saying that 51/13/7 is a bad spec to run it just easier to optimize 51/18/2.

Getting glyphed TtoT is worth on average 250 dps more than unglyphed and my gear level (around 6.1k gs). Running 51/13/7 the rupture glyph is about 200 dps if you prioritize rupture uptime . The difference to raid DPS isn't something to worry about except on fights that have damage increasing mechanics (queen), do not allow for high rupture uptime or where the controllable damage buff that tricks is can be exploited for AoE or any other intelligent use of it for that matter. Now depeneding on tactics and setup the number of fights that favor one over the other varies.

It really comes down to HOW each player uses the tricks they get. Tricks is such a powerful ability that it should not be disregarded as a passive dps buff as most players do.

Weebz · 04/28/10, 1:44 PM

Hopefully this hasn't been asked already but I'm in the middle of switching from Combat to Mutilate as we've recently lost our Mutilate rogue to the real world, and I was wondering if the crit cap concerns take into account the proc from Death's Verdict and the haste from Herkuml War Token. I slightly change an AP, hit, or haste gem in the sheet and I run into crit cap issues.

Rahdik · 04/28/10, 1:55 PM

To answer your question: Yes the sheet takes the proc from DV into account for your crit cap.

The haste from Herkuml has nothing to do with your crit cap, haste itself has nothing to do with it.

If you changed a hit gem, that could cause you to crit cap because with that gem you raised your cap and by removing it you may have lowered it to a point where you hit that cap.