Combat and Mutilate Spreadsheets (Obsolete as of 4.0.x) - Page 22

Raiid · 04/19/09, 8:23 AM

Xaoc never said white melee damage. He said physical damage, which would include mutilate itself.

Minka · 04/19/09, 9:54 AM

Hm okay, dont thought that ArP incrases white dps so much that it will beet FotfF. And why is the Spreadsheet telling Agi > AP? Can someone exlain this aswell pls

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Bovino · 04/19/09, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Minka

Hm okay, dont thought that ArP incrases white dps so much that it will beet FotfF.

It's not just white dps. ArP affects all physical damage, including Sinister Strike, Rupture, Eviscerate and so on (I'm hazarding a guess that you are Combat).

Your second question is pretty difficult to answer without knowing what variables you were using in the sheet. If it was best in slot T8 stuff, it's no surprise that agility is the superior stat given the four-piece set bonus.

Minka · 04/19/09, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Bovino

It's not just white dps. ArP affects all physical damage, including Sinister Strike, Rupture, Eviscerate and so on (I'm hazarding a guess that you are Combat).

Your second question is pretty difficult to answer without knowing what variables you were using in the sheet. If it was best in slot T8 stuff, it's no surprise that agility is the superior stat given the four-piece set bonus.

I know, but rupture is not affected from Armor.
But okay good to know now why it's that way. Was hard to think this way without some other which say the same.

Feist-Mok · 04/19/09, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Minka

I know, but rupture is not affected from Armor.
But okay good to know now why it's that way. Was hard to think this way without some other which say the same.

No single stat is automatically better than another stat to such a degree that it's mere presence or absence will define an item as good or bad. It's the amount of the stat and it's impact on your DPS that matters.

I.E. Agi > AP with 4 set T8 because of critting ruptures, but Grim Toll (or, more accurately, now that it's been discovered, the Mjollnir Runestone) is BIS as a trinket because having that much ArP at once as a proc will do more for your Sinister Strike/Eviscerate/White damage, than having say, the pyrite infusers 1200 AP proc, will do for those sources of damage + your ruptures and poisons.

Xaoc · 04/19/09, 2:57 PM

Originally Posted by jorysaywut

Xaoc, I don't know your playstyle or where you're pulling those numbers but on regular fights, I've never had white melee damage amount to 55% of my damage as Mutilate. On average, it's around 35%. Also, my poison damage generally hovers between 26-30% so I don't really see how you can't consider that a large part of your DPS.

Like Raiid said, yes I never said simply White damage. Depending on the fight, your white damage will range from 30-40%, and your mutilates will fluctuate between 15-25%. For combat, its an obvious truth that Grim Toll is far more effective than FoFF. You can make the argument that because Mut has a much larger portion of their damage from poisons, that FoFF is better than Grim Toll, and I'm sure a lot of people would agree with you. But with the recent buff to ArP, you'd be out of your mind to swap out Grim Toll for FoFF.

jorysaywut · 04/19/09, 6:25 PM

Originally Posted by Xaoc

Like Raiid said, yes I never said simply White damage. Depending on the fight, your white damage will range from 30-40%, and your mutilates will fluctuate between 15-25%. For combat, its an obvious truth that Grim Toll is far more effective than FoFF. You can make the argument that because Mut has a much larger portion of their damage from poisons, that FoFF is better than Grim Toll, and I'm sure a lot of people would agree with you. But with the recent buff to ArP, you'd be out of your mind to swap out Grim Toll for FoFF.

Ah ok, I mis-interpreted what you meant, my mistake. I still don't see where you can make the claim that you'd be out of your mind considering it's already modeled on the spreadsheets of this thread that FotFF is still better than Grim Toll for a Mutilate rogue. Granted there could be errors but where are you getting the basis to make this point aside from the knowledge that arpen rating got buffed in 3.1?

NoValidTitle · 04/20/09, 2:53 AM

So I realize that Daschal's Bite is a slow 1.8 but if I'm combat and currently using CG/HS would this be a step backwards using it in my OH?

Insole · 04/20/09, 11:21 AM

This is my first time posting here and just wanted to thank all the people for the endless hours it must take to prepare tese sheets.

I just started using these sheets a few weeks ago and have become quickly hooked. I feel lost without tem now. The problem is that I have mostly 10-man Naxx gear and the "Boots of Neverending Path" for the 66 hit rating. The last sheet with the drop down windows had many more gear options. I understand how long it must take to prepare such a complex sheet, but was wondering if this new sheet will evolve into a similar version as the last? I know I am behind most raiders and if I just need to wait till my gear gets better to make full use of the sheet that's fine, but just wanting to know so I can check back often before my gear gets better or just wait.

Again thank you very much for offering those of us who are far more uneducated in these things a chance to feel smart...lol

dimera · 04/20/09, 11:34 AM

SR/SR or SR/WD has been a topic of discussion for 3.1. It has been concluded that they may be very close, and that WD is the superior off-hand for mutilate builds. After running my gear in the mutilate spreadsheet I have come to the following conclusion. SR appears to be equal and/or slightly better only if Master Poisoner is spec'd into. However, if Turn the tables is spec'd into the WD off-hand comes out the winner. This is my personal observation on my personal gear. You all may or may not see similar results.

It has also been suggested that some may need to drop a point out of Precision and put 1 point into Improved Slice and Dice to maintain cycle stability (after replacing the SnD glyph with the HfB glyph). I submit to you that this is not needed if Master Poisoner is taken. Deadly poison stacks come back so quickly with Master Poisoner that it is much easier to maintain your rotations and to keep Slice and Dice up. The question becomes if WD is used as an off hand and Turn the Tables is spec'd into, will WD apply deadly poison fast enough to maintain your cycle without dropping a point out of Precision for Improved Slice and Dice? Please shed some light on this one for those who may be running WD off hand, no SnD glyph, and spec'd Turn the Tables. Do you see that you are dropping SnD a lot?

If you are having to spec 1 point into Improved SnD and lose 1 point in Precision, then the loss from this may trump using Turn the Tables at all, and Master Poisoner would become the superior talent. I know it all comes down to using the spreadsheet, but I want to see if the community is seeing similar results with similar gear and talent choices.

I also ran my gear through the Combat sheet with CG/WD and the SnD, Rupture, and SS glyphs Combat still came out slightly lower than the above mutilate spec with SR/SR 51/13/7 with Master Poisoner. Combat only got the edge with the Killing Spree Glyph selected. Amazing that the glyph is this good. Again these are my personal observations after using both spreadsheets. I bring these findings to the forums only to see if others are seeing and/or experiencing similar results. Thank you.

Bastaras · 04/20/09, 11:56 AM

According to the Mutilate sheet, if I gem all slots with +32 AP, regardless of socket bonus (including meta gem), this will give me the most dps of any other combination of gems.

Here's my gear

Does this seem right or should gem for some Agility and some Expertise?

Loot · 04/20/09, 12:03 PM

Start gemming for AGI instead, think about 4xT8 bonus. Besides, as Ald put it, the 1 dodge you will get from agi is more than all the damage you will get from AP :p

Insole · 04/20/09, 2:21 PM

After going back and reading the original post I realized that this new spreadsheet is aim at the higher end gear. I have a copy of the previous sheet saved and know that it will be off some due to the changes in armor pen and other things, but will it be even close or should I just not worry about any of this till my gear improves?

Almehym · 04/20/09, 2:29 PM

The new spreadsheet isn't really 'aimed at higher end gear' insofar as it prevents you from using it for T7.10 or blue gear. You'll have to input all those pieces in manually, which may be a little trouble, but isn't so hard as to need technical certification to do.

The older spreadsheet uses all dated mechanics. It isn't just armor penetration that got changed. Remember that for combat you're getting 10% haste, poisons are on a PPM system now, and lowered cooldowns and glpyhs are all in the game. It's up to you to decide if the effort of adding in your current pieces (and likely next upgrades if they won't be Ulduar or Naxx25 loot) is worth the accuracy of using the new spreadsheet.

Alacrity · 04/20/09, 2:40 PM

Originally Posted by Loot

Start gemming for AGI instead, think about 4xT8 bonus. Besides, as Ald put it, the 1 dodge you will get from agi is more than all the damage you will get from AP :p

Rupture damage is based on AP, gemming for AGI seems like a terrible idea if your basis for it is to help your 4 piece tier 8 bonus.