This has an assumption about the 2pc set bonus that has been bothering me. Not all abilities cost 40 energy. How do you really get the most out of the proc? Do you keep your cycle, ignoring the energy loss? Do you SS/Mut in place of any finisher? Maybe it's SS/Mut in place of the cheap finishers Rupture/SnD.
This strikes me as being similar to the old "how much DPS do you gain by pooling energy in conjunction with AToL procs" question. My guess is that choosing a particular attack in response to the proc is not going to increase your DPS by a terribly large percentage. As it is, most of the special attacks you're performing are going to be Sinister Strike/Mutilate. The frequency of performing a Slice and Dice or Rupture is probably something like 20-40%, so you're really losing an average of about 3-6 energy per proc. That's 7.5-15% of the theoretical value of the set bonus.
Hell, even if you use every proc for Slice and Dice, you only lose 37.5% of the bonus's value.
This strikes me as being similar to the old "how much DPS do you gain by pooling energy in conjunction with AToL procs" question. My guess is that choosing a particular attack in response to the proc is not going to increase your DPS by a terribly large percentage. As it is, most of the special attacks you're performing are going to be Sinister Strike/Mutilate. The frequency of performing a Slice and Dice or Rupture is probably something like 20-40%, so you're really losing an average of about 3-6 energy per proc. That's 7.5-15% of the theoretical value of the set bonus.
Hell, even if you use every proc for Slice and Dice, you only lose 37.5% of the bonus's value.
Assuming some amount of luck, would it be feasible to analyze the proc as only a sinister strike? I'd be interested in seeing whether it's more advantageous to always sinister strike (regardless of current combo points) or to go ahead and use a finisher on the off chance that it procs at 5cp. Not sure how easily modeled that is, and it might need it's own corner of discussion in one of the other threads, but "wasting" between 7.5%-37.5% of the proc seems significant enough to warrant alternative ideas about how to deal with a proc given you can catch it before you dump it on a Slice and Dice.
Aldriana (including his current signature) says that it'll be out when it's out and not to bug him about it. As Mavanas quite rightly pointed out, there hasn't been a whole lot of change to the actual calculations worth rushing anything out.
If all your looking to do is play with the shiny new gear, either of the updates will suit you just fine. It's really easy to add gear to either sheet if that's all your looking to do.
The only reason I've updated the mutilate sheet is that I wanted to fix up a few little issues, and add the socket bonus stuff in (and previously the raid buffs etc), mainly since Aldriana stated that they were focusing on the combat sheet (given that the fact that combat seems to be on average the spec of choice, I just can't get combat weapons to drop to save myself) and were going to let the mutilate spreadsheet slip. Adding the new gear was just an afterthought.
I agree with Nerms, I would like an official release as well by Aldriana, not that I do not appreciate all the hard work he has put into his spreadsheets through out the years. I think that yeah, tooling around with the new gear would be cool, but I am also seeing and hearing from other rogues that Arp is the new way to gem. Forgive me if I did not see it in another post, but I would like to play around with the new epic gems in a spreadsheet.... At the same time, no rush Aldriana.
I agree with Nerms, I would like an official release as well by Aldriana, not that I do not appreciate all the hard work he has put into his spreadsheets through out the years. I think that yeah, tooling around with the new gear would be cool, but I am also seeing and hearing from other rogues that Arp is the new way to gem. Forgive me if I did not see it in another post, but I would like to play around with the new epic gems in a spreadsheet.... At the same time, no rush Aldriana.
It's really not hard to edit new gear into your existing sheet. I did it myself while I quietly and patiently wait for Aldriana's sheet to be finished. At the same time, you can download one of the sheets edited by another member of the rogue community and use that.
To be honest good sir, I do not know the first step in editing a spreadsheet, I just bask in the glory of Aldriana's hard work. I started hardcore raiding back in the middle of TBC and have been using his spreadsheet's ever since. Hats off to you sir.
At risk of sounding condescending or acting too much as a moderator, all this talk of Aldriana's anticipated spreadsheet is getting old quickly and just taking up forum space. His sheet will be ready when it is ready, and constantly asking when it will come out won't make it come out any faster. Lets please try to keep the discussion in these forums related to spreadsheet specific questions, and not keep asking "When will the new sheet come out?", "How do I edit the spreadsheet?", "Is this better or that?". Very little has changed in this patch aside from new gear and gems. These questions have all been answered multiple times and can very easily found by skimming most the last pages of many of the threads in the rogue forums, or possibly even by doing a quick google search.
Something I've been pondering that I found missing in the current incarnation of the combat spreasheet had to do with ArP. With the current emphasis on ArP over agility, and the EP values of ArP escalating even further in T9 level gear, perhaps it might deem looking into to model Executioner into the enchants for the weapons. Executioner caught up with Mongoose in SWP gear levels, if memory serves properly, and that was before ArP got a sizable buff.
Last edited by Loria : 08/13/09 at 7:54 PM.
Reason: spelling
ArPen did get a significant buff... but before that, it received a significant nerf. As such, Executioner - which never actually caught Mongoose in effectiveness (that it ever appeared to was merely a spreadsheet bug), was, until the recent buff, *way* behind other options in terms of efficacy.
Let us consider a moment what would need to happen for Executioner to catch Berserking. Given that they seem to have similar proc rates, one presumes that it would require the Executioner proc (120 ArPen) to be competitive with the Berserking proc (400 AP). And this will be the case only if 1 ArPen is as good as 3.33 AP, i.e., its worth 3.33 EP.
Only with the most ArPen-heavy setups does the value of ArPen even crack 3. And in those setups, the goal is to *passively* push the ArPen cap, at which point there's no room for Executioner anyway. As such, there's little reason to believe that Executioner will ever be competitive. Plus, it's a nuisance to model correctly. Hence, I have no particular plans to ever do so, until such time there is reason to believe that it will compete with Berserking.
Mongoose, on the other hand, gives 120 Agi and 2% haste; 2% haste, depending on one's current haste rating, is typically worth something approaching 70 haste rating. With extreme high-end stats, the values of Agi and Haste can crest 2.1 and 1.8, respectively, giving that enchant a value on the order of 2.1 * 120 + 1.8 * 70 = 378 AP. It is thus not inconceivable that, with the improved scaling of agi and haste relative to AP, we may reach a point where Mongoose eclipses the value of Berserking.
...assuming, of course that the proc rates are indeed identical. Which I'm not sure we've ever actually proven. But it is something to keep in mind.
Hey guys, I hope this post is OK here, but I want to know if the Combat and Mutilate spreadsheets from here(ether original or updates) DPS results are comparable across spreadsheets?
To give a slightly more specific example If I have both spreadsheets setup with my gear (same on both) and my standard Mut spec on the one, and my standard Combat spec on other with the glyphs being appropriate to each spec, should the DPS numbers be comparable to each other across spreadsheets to see how certain items effect each spec differently?
Specifically I tested my Sinister Revenge x2 on my Mut SS and got X DPS. Now on my Combat SS (with hack and slash) I tried Malice/Remorse sword combo and I got X-800 DPS. Now I bet I am missing something stupid, so I hope someone can explain. I expected with the slightly higher iLVL of the swords and with them being decently well itemized I would see similar if not better DPS, but I did not.
Am I doing something wrong trying to compare across or would those weapons accurately be that much lower with a combat build?
So I'm sorry if this is a stupid question. I tried looking through the posts and couldn't find a definitive answer. Once you reach the Poison Hit Cap (315) and the Expertise Cap at which point is it better to start stacking ArPen gems vs. Agi gems?
Using Aldriana's spreadsheet it shows that Agi is the way to go but I see all the top rogues stacking ArPen...what gives?
So I'm sorry if this is a stupid question. I tried looking through the posts and couldn't find a definitive answer. Once you reach the Poison Hit Cap (315) and the Expertise Cap at which point is it better to start stacking ArPen gems vs. Agi gems?
Using Aldriana's spreadsheet it shows that Agi is the way to go but I see all the top rogues stacking ArPen...what gives?
I'm currently 4/5 T8 and have rest uld10/25 gear.
The value of Armor Penetration goes up with the amount of Armor Penetration you already have, including that from trinket procs.
Since you have neither Mjolnir's Runestone nor Grim Toll, agility is probably better for you.
They're pretty close up to huge values of armor penetration, anyway. I offspec mutilate, as you do, and so generally gem for agility as it is far better for Mutilate on bosses that are Murder-able and most of my gear does double-duty.
Also, the poison cap is 237 with Misery/iFF and full Precision, not 315. Unless you tend to only raid 10-mans, you'll more likely than not have one or the other, so I wouldn't stress out about keeping your hit much above 237, though it's still useful for increased combat potency procs.
Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.
After some testing with Spreadsheets, it says that Mutilate is ahed combat. So I'm asking me why, what has changed in 3.2 to mutilate? Or calculating failures? The only change to Mutilate I knew was somethign with Basedmg from Envenom (which is not stated in Patch Notes, so maybe it's not done). I tried much and looked to many logs from many guilds.
So can I trust the calculations?
Combat has nice utility because of the CDs (AR, BF and KS) you can "abuse" them to do much dmg. Mutilate has no really cds which can be "abused" you can use Vanish to get more energy and CB for one crit envenom / crit FOK. Single target dps from Mut is high when the target is affected from Murder (sadly this is not every boss) and thats it.
After some testing with Spreadsheets, it says that Mutilate is ahed combat. So I'm asking me why, what has changed in 3.2 to mutilate? Or calculating failures? The only change to Mutilate I knew was somethign with Basedmg from Envenom (which is not stated in Patch Notes, so maybe it's not done). I tried much and looked to many logs from many guilds.
So can I trust the calculations?
Combat has nice utility because of the CDs (AR, BF and KS) you can "abuse" them to do much dmg. Mutilate has no really cds which can be "abused" you can use Vanish to get more energy and CB for one crit envenom / crit FOK. Single target dps from Mut is high when the target is affected from Murder (sadly this is not every boss) and thats it.
Could you please share your gear/gem/spem setup for these result?
Previously stated, combat pulled ahead by quite a margin. Have you found something others missed?
The reason I prefer combat is not only trash, but the ability to pop cooldowns at will, like when doing Deconstructor at hard mode to nuke the heart. Spreadsheet may be right about average dps and mutilate being ahead on murderable bosses, but I'd still find combat slightly more useful for timing cooldowns with bloodlust etc.
08/10/09, 10:12 AM
