You need 15 points in Assassination to pick up Vile Poisons, so you can't trade points in Ruthlessness for Vile Poisons.

Consult a talent calculator too. You can't get to Vile Poisons by simply dropping Ruthlessness, you need the points somewhere in that tree to go up a tier. Unless you're saying dump them in Imp Evis too or something.

Edit: Ah, too slow, got beaten to it.

I added a "sum" to the bottom of talent column underneath each section, it said 15. When I was messing around with some variations. I just took that mock up to point it into the talent calc, came back. I came back to say I apologize. I had points in improved evis. But I already got exposed as an dolt. :\ Sorry folks

What I found out is improved evis, isn't modeled for a DPS increase right in 1.3. Meaning you can put points in it, but it's only going to give you like 1-3 dps. This may be until Aldrianna figures out ruptureless cycles it is still assuming your using rupture as primary, and evis as secondary?


It did show me that ruthlessness is definitely more of a HaT/Mutilate talent, and it provides nominal dps increase for combat though. Just over 11 dps per point. Just not using enough finishers. Long term it's less dependable than SS glyph.

Meanwhile if your trying to figure out a Mace/ HnS or Cqc/HnS style build, it could be more beneficial to drop it completely and get 5/5 in one of the other talents depending on gear. That's what I ended up finding out. 170 DPS gain if the calcs are on for this spreadsheet.

If you're not getting much improvement out of Imp Evisc, it's because you're getting very fewer Eviscerates in your cycle. This will be the case as long as you're wearing 4pc T8 (even if it is gem'd straight ArP) and running Rupture in your cycle.

Once you have enough gear to drop 4pc T8, you become a lot closer to being able to change your spec to include Imp Evisc and run a Ruptureless cycle. I've not found a point though where you can drop Blood Spatter and Rupture while still in 4pc T8; the T8 4pc bonus is too good to not use it.

According to the 1.3 sheet, once you are able to drop Rupture the value of both Imp Evisc and Ruthlessness are very good. With Imp Evisc being 30+DPS per point and Ruthlessness being worth anywhere from 30-40+ DPS per point. (At least for my gear progression path.)

Hey, Fantastic spreadsheet. I am just trying to work out when adding an item, what the S.AGI, S.STR etc cells are for =)

Eg, I copped the Valorous Terrorblade Breastplate line, inserted a new line above it and added Valorous Bonescythe including the correct stats and colour gem sockets, but I am unsure what I add for the S.AGI, S.HIT etc cells.

Also do I need to change the "rank" cell?

Or any easier way to ask it, do I not touch anything after cell (AO)?

Thanks for any help and yes I have searched like mad :P

The S.Agi, S.Hit, etc. cells are for the item's socket bonus. The Valorous Bonescythe Breastplate has a socket bonus of 6 Crit Rating, so you would add a 6 in S.Crit.

You do not need to change anything in the rank cell, because the spreadsheet automatically ranks all items for the same slot if you correctly copied the whole line.

1.3 is available in beta format. While some of the kinks aren't ironed out completely (the actual cycle isn't even displayed, for instance) it probably wouldn't do you any harm messing with it to see what comes out.

On a side note I noticed you only have 421 base ArP. That seems rather low to make the switch over to the rupture-less cycle. You are able to keep up with fellow Rogues running rupture? Or a better question, on fights where you once used rupture are you able to do slightly more / slightly less / about the same dps?

The reason I ask is because I am sitting on 559 ArP at the moment. That, with Mjolnir I barely under the ArP softcap. According to the beta spreadsheet switching to rupture-less will lose me about 250 dps. Of course, both spreadsheets are calculating under certain optimal assumptions (95% rupture uptime for instance). I'll admit I probably am a bit lower than that, so perhaps the dps gap is not so large.

Wondering if perhaps now would be a good time to test it out, even though I am very very far from the hardcap.

So, take this with a grain of salt, as the high-rupture cycle is still pretty busted still (even on my personal copy, which I've been working on fixing), but: it actually appears that more or less as soon as you have the gear to break T8 4/5, you can go straight to rupture-free cycles. I don't want to 100% advocate that until I get all the kinks worked out, but... that's actually sort of the way it's looking right now. But with enough T9 gear to break T8 4/5, it appears that you simply have enough crit and ArPen that non-critting rupture just can't keep up.

one thing i dont understand... hit cap is supposed to be 315 for combat? i replaced some some items, got ring for badges, kept 4 pieces of tier 8, only i bought dusstalker shoulders - my hit dropped from 340 to 265. And if I soon replace grim toll with greatness, im gonna have like 180 hit-and still spreadsheet shows that even then it will give me more dps. is that ok or??
thanks

Yep, if the sheet says it's an upgrade, I'd trust it. The poison cap isn't something you really need to strive for as combat.

I'm wondering if you could even switch out of rupture based cycles earlier than that? I still have my 4 piece T8.5 and when I compare my DPS from 1.2 and 1.3 (1.2 with my rupture spec and 1.3 with my evis) I only drop ~250 dps or less. The gap lessens as I upgrade more offset pieces. Obviously it might not be "optimal", but there are many cases where you can not easily keep up your optimal cycle so perhaps switching to the easier evis cycle would be able to do just as well?

Quick question: Is it just me or is there no separation between mainhand and offhand miss and dodge rates for white hits? I searched through the calcs sheet and couldn't find anything regarding that matter. I'm simply asking because I as an orc am trying to figure out various weapon and talent combinations since I grabbed Blood Fury last night (something like going 5/5 CQC 1/5 H&S with GSD/Blood Fury).

There's no separation between OH and MH miss rates because they can't be different unless your weapon skill is not fully leveled, in which case you have more important things to be doing than using spreadsheets. Dodge rate will need to be accounted for separately once I start worrying about the various racial abilities, which I'm not doing yet anyway. At the moment the only difference race makes is in terms of base stats.

Beta release number 2. Still quite a bit of polish missing, but all reported bugs, plus the cycle issues I found myself, should now be fixed. Answers are thus somewhat less likely to be wrong. All previous caveats still apply; let me know if you find anything wierd.

Edit: Download removed; see post 1224 for latest beta.

One thing I noticed was that [Armbands of the Wary Lookout] are not included on that beta; I don't know if it's because of where they come from, but they are definitely an upgrade to other wrists included on the sheet.

Also, for some reason, the EP values for ArP and Agility are 'locked' as equal to eachother, no matter what kind of gear setup I use. On the calcs page, ArP has a StatVector of 1 - not sure if that is the reason, but just wanting to point it out.

[Armbands of the Wary Lookout] haven't been included in any of these spreadsheets so far. Not sure why, but if you have been using them (and using the spreadsheet) you should be well accustomed to simply adding them in yourself.

The Agility and ArP are the same EP because you have the option to equal them checked. To uncheck this go to the Settings tab and on line two change the value to 0. I don't remember the exact purpose of this new option, but I *think* it was to better calculate ArP when you are above cap. I could be wrong though. There is a post earlier from Aldriana better explaining it.

Edit: Aldriana, maybe I am completely blanking on something but why is my MH crit cap different from my OH crit cap if I am Undead? I could understand this to be the case with Orcs using Fist/Dagger, but not Undead.

On a side note I arrived at about the same DPS as the previous 1.3 beta (2.7 dps higher actually).

Edit 2: The biggest change I notice though is something was changed with either how [Banner of Victory] is calculated, or how [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] was calculated. In the first beta BoV was giving me a small boost in DPS over DMC:G (4+), whereas in this new beta it is showing a DPS loss in the same gear.

So, my initial theory to both of the last two questions/bug reports is that beta one had some poorly thought-out sections of the cycle model that were leading to discontinuities - that is, there were places where a small improvement of gear would create a large improvement of DPS due to moving to a cycle with significantly superior properties - for instance, in one case I changed a Fractured Cardinal Ruby to a Deadly Ametrine to get a set bonus, and my DPS improved by ~30 DPS. So I'm guessing that the items were previously on either sides of such a breakpoint, meaning that the new continuous model adjusts their relative quality.

However, to be sure, I'd need to see the settings you had in your sheet - if you'd like to send a copy to my EJ email account (again, it is what you think it is, but PM me if you want confirmation), I'll take a closer look.

Actually upon closer inspection it was just my own user error at fault. Frustrating having to go through and adjust everything to be exact.

On one of my sheets I had ArP food while on the other I had AP. Being a mere 8 away from the ArP softcap that difference threw a wrench into it all. Other than that there is a very slight (+/- 5 or less DPS) difference between the two beta sheets on my end. I assume this is to be expected though, and is very minor.

Edit: As a note on the side though for anybody who has these two trinkets and are curious: BoV catches up and passes DMC:G around ~300 or so ArP (if I remember right), but once you hit your softcap DMC:G once again is better. This holds true for both T8 rupture and no rupture cycles from what I've seen

Hello i would like to know how the t9 first bonus has been taken into account in the sheet. do you have a proc rate ? AFAIK it's very small , and i wonder how you calculated it .

2T8 is to the best of my knowledge implemented as a flat 1energy/3secs.
2T9 is calculated in cell AR670 as the product of Rupture duration, Rupture applications per second (which depending on gear setup works out to one every 22seconds or so) and the 2% proc chance per 2 seconds denoted as 0.01 in the sheet.
This works out to a proc every 108 seconds, which, judging by more or less ill informed threads on the wow-forums, is mirrored by empirical findings.
With the high Rupture cycle, this means 2T9 is slightly superior to 2T8.

Thanks for the explanation. 2t9 can be better than 2t8 , but 4t8.25 are still better than 4t9 (232 ). I will spreadsheet to see it 2xt9.25+ 2xt8,25 are worth instead of 4xt8.25 , but i think another dude 3 pages ago made all the math and noted t8 bonuses doesn't justify the change.

A quick find, On Live currently the Nightmare Tear will solo activate the Meta gem requirement. This was tested with t7.25 helm and no other gear.