Combat and Mutilate Spreadsheets (Obsolete as of 4.0.x) - Page 47

Pinch · 05/25/09, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Mavanas

By the way, according to those who researched this spell, revitalize can proc even if you are fully topped off, so if a druid in your raid has nothing to do, he should keep rejuvenation and wild growth on rogues.

My opinion since I have a raiding resto druid alt;
Revitalize does indeed proc if you are at full health, but the problem lies with Wild Growth. Wild growth isn't always applied to the target you initially cast it on, it checks all targets within 20 yards first, and smart heals the lowest 5 (6 glyphed) it finds. Most of the time, pets end up eating it. Rejuvenation is a lot less reliable for proccing Revitalize since it's a 15% chance every 3 seconds, while you have 15% per second over 6 seconds with wild growth.

Depends on the encounter but it certainly is viable to keep up rejuv on the Rogues/Death Knights (their 16 runic power revitalize is massive to certain specs). Using wild growth in your calculations is not a good idea because it is hard to control.

Playered · 05/26/09, 7:29 AM

Rejuvenation is a 15% per tick and Wild Growth is a 3% per tick per target (which is 15% per second over all 5 targets) chance. If you want to model Revitalize then you would do best by only contemplating Rejuvenation into the discussion as Wild Growth is unreliable in both target and proc chance.

naknekm · 05/26/09, 8:31 AM

I have been wondering about the Enchanted Tear gem. I do not see options to use it in the combat spreadsheet.

Is there a reason that it is not listed in the combat spreadsheet. Am I perhaps missing something?

Thanks in advance.

p3ng · 05/26/09, 9:39 AM

Originally Posted by naknekm

I have been wondering about the Enchanted Tear gem. I do not see options to use it in the combat spreadsheet.

Is there a reason that it is not listed in the combat spreadsheet. Am I perhaps missing something?

Thanks in advance.

If I had to guess, I would say that the spreadsheet assumes that you have Jewelcrafting as a profession and would use the prismatic gems in the not-so-beneficial blue slots.

mdn · 05/26/09, 9:43 AM

Originally Posted by p3ng

If I had to guess, I would say that the spreadsheet assumes that you have Jewelcrafting as a profession and would use the prismatic gems in the not-so-beneficial blue slots.

It can be added much the same way other equipment can: unhide the gems tab, rather than the gear tab, and simply add it.

cougarhawk · 05/26/09, 10:00 AM

It's not that the spreadsheet "assumes JC" so much that an Enchanted Tear (14 EP) will result in a DPS loss against any other gem in the list (including 16 EP purple ones) unless you're doing something silly like gemming for Expertise when you're over the cap. So if you want to compare your DPS with Enchanted Tear in your gear instead of some other gem, the answer is trivial: it's worse.

Edit: I'm wrong and the post below me is right, I'm so used to working in multiples of 4 when talking gems that I counted the tear as +4 stats when estimating it's value.

Rerox · 05/26/09, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by cougarhawk

It's not that the spreadsheet "assumes JC" so much that an Enchanted Tear (14 EP) will result in a DPS loss against any other gem in the list (including 16 EP purple ones) unless you're doing something silly like gemming for Expertise when you're over the cap. So if you want to compare your DPS with Enchanted Tear in your gear instead of some other gem, the answer is trivial: it's worse.

I am not sure what sheet version you are using or what equipment you have selected, but for me an enchanted tear (+6 to all stats) equals roughly 19 EP (19,025) while purple gems at best reach 16,5 EP. So no Enchanted Tear is not worse, in most cases Enchanted Tear seems to be the best blue gem you can use if you have to.

Pinch · 05/26/09, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Playered

and Wild Growth is a 3% per tick per target (which is 15% per second over all 5 targets) chance

Test it for yourself, it was fixed to give 15% per tic per target last patch.

Cavaletta · 05/26/09, 11:06 AM

Have any combat rogues actually tried gemming for massive arpen over agility? Been wanting to try but its quite the cost to re-gem and have not seen any actual testing gone down.

advanced · 05/26/09, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Farz

i'd say mutilate is a bit funnier to play.
I kept on reading "Ensidia rogues are combat so you should go combat" "Combat is a bit ahead on spreadsheets just go combat". I don't know if i'm bad with combat spec or if Mutilate is just really hard to model accurately in spreadsheets but i keep being a bit more competitive on murderable fights with Mutilate spec. Maybe i lack ArPen for that one too i guess.

I have to strongly disagree here unfortunately, just because a guild who has huge progress has combat rogues it doesn't mean every rogue should be combat. I've tried the 15/51/5 as a rogue and its far more uncomfortable aswell as giving me less DPS than 51/13/7, combat rogues only really shine where the bossfight has a mass amount of adds (of course unless they have BiS gear), where as a mutilate rogue can sustain a nice amount of DPS through a constant repeating rotation, combat is very "Cooldown based" giving you maximum possible DPS for a certain amount of time other than constantly.

Giving the state of ArP at this moment in time i've found it near useless without Mjonnir Runestone until i get that it's really of no use whatsoever gemming for ArP.

Goldengiff · 05/26/09, 12:00 PM

I did until I got 4pt8 and it was ok. It certainly wasn't horrible or anything, but in-game experience is not a good indicator of good vs bad. Since they are changing it so ArP is capped at 100% of targets armor, there's no sploity things you can do with it anymore. Agi is strictly better than ArP once you have 4pt8, but ArP continues to be a good stat. Only dif now is you probably don't run both Grim Toll and Mijolnr Runestone.

Cavaletta · 05/26/09, 12:26 PM

Honestly I have no idea how you all are seeing Assassination as good as Combat spec. From all that I have seen the difference is much greater than these theorycrafts would have you believe. It's just not a coincidence that the vast majority of rogues raiding in high end guilds are combat. Seen as high as 6400-6500dps from combat on fights like Ignis and XT...straight destroying all other dps, haven't seen any HFB get that high.

velocibrad · 05/26/09, 1:20 PM

Originally Posted by Cavaletta

Honestly I have no idea how you all are seeing Assassination as good as Combat spec. From all that I have seen the difference is much greater than these theorycrafts would have you believe. It's just not a coincidence that the vast majority of rogues raiding in high end guilds are combat. Seen as high as 6400-6500dps from combat on fights like Ignis and XT...straight destroying all other dps, haven't seen any HFB get that high.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. The numbers from "these theorycrafts" show what we are capable of in an optimal situation. They are proven by mathematical equations and simulations and lots of time spent into figuring out exactly how it all works. Is it likely that we will be in optimal situations? No not really, but there is clearly proof out there that your statement is flat out wrong.

As a side note, just so you know, I was pulling ~6200 on Ignis before getting my 4pT8 bonus. So yeah, HFB can keep up with those combat numbers you stated.

Tinwhisker · 05/26/09, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by velocibrad

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. The numbers from "these theorycrafts" show what we are capable of in an optimal situation. They are proven by mathematical equations and simulations and lots of time spent into figuring out exactly how it all works. Is it likely that we will be in optimal situations? No not really, but there is clearly proof out there that your statement is flat out wrong.

As a side note, just so you know, I was pulling ~6200 on Ignis before getting my 4pT8 bonus. So yeah, HFB can keep up with those combat numbers you stated.

Appending to this, the superiority of Combat in many fights is linked to the judicious use of cooldowns during certain buff/debuff phases (unlike Mutilate which gains any superiority from a flat damage modifier, ie Murder). There are times and points in progression where this happens but there are also times where it works against combat because those phases are removed or "spaced poorly."

Suffice to say that from normal to hard, Mutilate is quite viable in T8 raiding and there's enough give and take between the two to call them fairly balanced with the edge going to Combat.

tetracycloide · 05/26/09, 2:06 PM

Originally Posted by velocibrad

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. The numbers from "these theorycrafts" show what we are capable of in an optimal situation. They are proven by mathematical equations and simulations and lots of time spent into figuring out exactly how it all works. Is it likely that we will be in optimal situations? No not really, but there is clearly proof out there that your statement is flat out wrong.

Strictly speaking the theorcraft numbers for combat cooldowns show the minimum value of cooldowns by averaging the effect over the duration, not the optimal value. In actual play the value of a cooldown is always higher than the effect over the duration unless the fight ends the exact second the cooldown ends and before it is used. So for 2 min cooldowns and sub 3 min boss fights combat has an edge that's not shown in the sheets.

For example, this combat sheet provides a duration option in the settings tab. If the above effect was correctly accounted for a duration of 4 mins and 15 secs (255 sec) should provide more DPS than a duration of 3 mins 59 secs (239 sec). The first would be 3 killing sprees and blade furies in a 4min 15 sec period for an average uptime of 17.6% on blade furry while the second would be 2 killing sprees and blade furies for an average uptime of 12.5%. That's a pretty big swing but the sheet shows the shorter fight as the one with higher DPS when the cooldown timing clearly shows otherwise.