Since gemming out of agi I am fairly certain I am no where near crit cap. 56% raid buffed max, and the sheet has my crit cap at 61.

I had been under the impression that the percentage given by the sheet was the base percentage required for the DM proc to push you over the cap, guess I will have to do something about this then.

I think pristine (20 ap/10 hit) solve my problem more effectively, a fact that is backed up by the spreadsheet,

You're crit capping. I'm not even going to bother punching your gear into the sheet - I'll just do this from the armory. On the armory, I have 44.04% crit. With raid buffs, the sheet brings this up to 52.04%, and my crit cap is 63.14. Thus, when Dark Matter (13.33% crit goes off), my crit (65.37) is above the cap.

Your armory crit is 43.27. Assuming you gain a similar 8%, your baseline crit is probably around 51.27. With Dark Matter procced, you're thus around 64.6%, which is above your crit cap of 61.

Thus: you're crit capping. To fix this problem, replace gems - first Deadly with Glinting, and then Delicate with Bright as necessary, until the "White Crit Cap" and "MH Base Crit Rate" on the first page are at least 13.33% apart. Your EP values should return to something more akin to what you might expect.

Note that the example of my armory is going to go away at some point today as I'm switching to a weapon/gear setup that doesn't have this problem, but for those of you that check in the next hour or so this example will be illustrative.

I have a question about executioner. I read your post from about three weeks ago arguing that executioner falls behind berserking even at the highest arpen levels. However, if I use executioner, I nearly hard cap giving arpen a rating of about 3, which is still short. This is using a ruptureless cycle, pre 3.22 nerf as combat. HOWEVER, sitting on a target dummy for a few 5 million damage parses i saw an uptime of about 55-6% for executioner when used MH only. I tracked this using an add on called procodile. The latest spreadsheet model has MH berserking uptime at 41% if I'm reading it correctly. (Cell B107, calcs tab) Would anything change the proc rate of executioner in a raid (vs the dummy) to lower its proc rate? If executioner uptime is that much higher, it seems like a better option for one weapon. I figured I would ask given that I'm not 100% if I'm understanding the SS correctly. Thanks.

So, the 41% (or whatever) is computed by the best known estimate of the proc rate of Executioner. As of the current time, it is believed that Berserking, Executioner, and Mongoose are all 1 PPM. However, I don't recall seeing any rigorous testing - like, I ran some numbers during the beginning of the expansion indicating that both Mongoose and Executioner were "about" 1 PPM, but there's quite a lot of wiggle room in that "about".

So: if our proc rate assumptions are correct, all 3 should have uptime in the low 40s from a single MH weapon enchant, and my previous argument stands. If it is wrong, but they're still all the same, the argument still holds. It's only if Executioner has a *significantly* higher proc rate than Berserking that it might reasonably catch up - if you'd like to provide some formalized testing of this, I'm sure everyone would be interested in seeing it.

I might also note that historically Mongoose and Executioner have had the same proc rate for as long as both have existed; hence, even if Executioner does have a sufficiently higher proc rate to surpass Berserking, Mongoose would probably have the same uptime (unless they did something seriously weird). In which case, 120 ArPen would need to surpass 120 agi + 2% haste in quality in order for it to be worth using, and a bit of analysis shows that this criterion also requires the EP of ArPen to be up around 3... which, particularly after the forthcoming nerf, seems a bit unlikely.

So: our current understanding is that Executioner is not worth using. If you'd like to provide testing to see if our understanding is correct, that'd be super. But until I see such testing, I continue to be disinclined to spend the time to include it in the spreadsheet.

This is what I have after 25 mins of zerking and 30 of exe. I know - it's NOT a lot of time. However, the ppm of Banner and Greatness are VERY close, while the Zerking/Exec are somewhat spread. It's gonna take more testing, but it's late and I'm tired.


http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5649/berserking.jpg (Golden Saronite Dragon = Berserking)
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5572/executioner.jpg (Golden Saronite Dragon = Executioner)


EDIT: This was done with my typical combat rotation on the boss dummy.

You don't have to engage in a standard rotation to test the ppm rate of an enchant. If you just autoattack with two weapons, one with berserking and one with executioner, but do it for a longer period of time to get a better sample, we can back out the ppm rate from such a test.

For completeness, we would need to know your stats, in particular haste rating and speed of the weapons you are using. There were some theories that ppm interraction with haste have changed in poison-like fashion.

So far the highest dps I've been able to spreadsheet is 9787.5 for a night elf(9774.5 for me as a dwarf).

This is using the 1.2 sheet though with a rupture cycle. Haven't been able to find the 1.3 yet to check the differences but I imagine the arp changes won't affect it to much with the gemming.

Is this version of the sheet available for download anywhere?

I'm using the sheets mostly for finding out which gear setups come out on top, but I'm wondering how close people can come to the estimated (theoretical) dps the sheets show. I expect fights like ignis or 2nd in TOC would come closest, could anyone share how close they can come to the estimate, 10% , 5% of or closer?

On Ignis, assuming not being pulled into the pot and the tank keeps him faced away, I can get within 5% of the estimated. This is Aldriana's sheet estimate.

Aldriana, remeber this DP mechanics we discussed? I am wondering if you account for DP tick resets for combat if a DP poison application occurs before stacks are dropped but after 4 ticks of damage. I thought this never occured outside of a hypothetical weapon swapping scenario, but having started to model it, I can see that it does happen. Of course, the effect of DP resets is really minor unless it's constantly occuring as in the weapon swapping scenario.

As a slight clarification on the high rupture/low rupture part of the new beta sheet, does that involve energy capping or dumping sinister strikes on a 5cp target to maintain high rupture cycle?

The new combat 1.3 sheet crashed my office 2007 excel and word. I was unable to come back from it. Reinstalling office didn't work had to format and reinstall. It seems alot larger then the 1.2 sheet.

I really doubt a spreadsheet without macros was able to destroy your Office install. You should start looking elsewhere.

Much, though not all, of the size difference between the two files is because 1.3 contains more gear. It's still small for an Excel file.

The 1.3 sheet weighs in around 1.4 MB which is about twice as large as the 1.2 sheet. I'm able to run both just fine in as low as Office 2000 Pro with a pentium processor and 512 MB RAM (tried on an older machine at work). On that setup I'm able to open spreadsheets as large as 60 MB without issue (which is what I normally work with here).

Whatever your problem is, it seems unlikely that it's related to the sheet itself.

When comparing the mutilate and combat spreadsheets I find there are attributes of each that I like. I was wondering if someone could help me modify the combat sheet to include some of the following:

20 Expertise gem as a red gem option
10 expertise / 10 hit as a yellow gem option

The boots, Treads of the Dismal Fortune: [Treads of Dismal Fortune] from H ToC 5 man.
I find these boots to very comparable to Footpads of silence, in certain gear setups.

Something that I find very useful from the mutilate spreadsheet is the listing of the gear's specific stats as well as your total stats.
I know you do this for ArmPen but it would be nice to know my total hit ratings, expertise ratings, Agi/AP, and %crit.

Do you have any intention to add something like this in? Or could someone point me in the right direction to add these gems/item into the spreadsheet?

When coming from a heavy expertise based Mutilate build and trying to work out my combat off-spec these things would be key to finding my BiS setup.

Well, there are a couple of possibilities.

1/ A bug in the sheet.

2/ The possibility that as MH weapon base damage increases along with AP/crit/ArPen, the value of finishers such as Rupture and Eviscerate diminishes relative to the damage done by your CPG. This is what led to 5s/5r/5e rotations near the end of TBC. Eliminating the CP generation from the glyph forces you to generate more combo points via SS. Now, I haven't sat down and gone through the math on this, but I would not be shocked if perhaps this is the case for you. I can however vouch for the behaviour you have observed regarding glyph selection in the spreadsheet with my own setup.

To the first question: yes, there appears to be a bug with Glyph of SS in the 1.3 beta. I will investigate.

To the second: 1.2 assumes Deadly offhand, and has a MH poison selection setting on the Settings page. 1.3 uses whichever poison is optimal on both hands - this can be Instant or Wound MH, and either of those or Deadly on the OH. It computes this automatically, and eventually will report which it's doing - it simply doesn't display that information yet. However, if at high gear levels you see your crit/hit/haste EP values jump up by a significant amount (usually up around 1.8 for all three), that's because you just reached the crossover point where Deadly is no longer worth using.

I normally wouldn't bother to mention this, but since you wrote it two times: 18/51/2 is the correct one, in case it's solving something. (I assume it's just mistyping)
Anyway informations in aswers regarding this post are pretty useful - thanks for mentioning it.

Yes, that was a mistake and I fixed it, thanks Perpetua.

As for sinister strike glyph, I have more information that might help. After last night I was able to get a few more pieces of gear which significantly increased my hit rating after optimizing the best gear combination (317 to 459). As such, even in a 15/51/5 build, the glyph of sinister strike drops in value compared to the other glyphs.


I am seeing the following for 15/51/5:

1. SS Glyph DPS = 7557
2. AR Glyph DPS = 7566
3. BF Glyph DPS = 7570
4. SnD Glyph DPS = 7573

EP Values with SnD Glyph:

1. Agility 2.00
2. Crit 1.66
3. White Hit 1.45
4. Spell Hit 1.89
5. Expertise 1.78
6. Haste 1.55

Although this just a small increase of 16 DPS, it increases the value of a 18/51/2 build a bit more.


For 18/51/2:

1. SS Glyph DPS = 7603
2. AR Glyph DPS = 7657
3. BF Glyph DPS = 7660
4. SnD Glyph DPS = 7666

EP Values with SnD Glyph:

1. Agility 1.97
2. Crit 1.63
3. White Hit 1.48
4. Spell Hit 1.99
5. Expertise 1.78
6. Haste 1.57

It would seem optimal for me to respec if this is accurate. As Safiyania mentioned above, did I reach a point where enough AP/crit and/or hit decresed the value the SS glyph extra CPs and instead a 5s/5r/5e rotation to be supreme with SnD glyph?

My armory is correct with my PVE gear.

EDIT: More sims ran with Mavanas's sheet shows that an 18/51/2 build can be 1% higher than a 15/51/5 build however, his sheet favors SS glyph over the SnD glyph.

I am coming across the same thing, however only when using rupture though.

Rupture-Free cycle: 18/51/2 baseline is Killing Spree and Eviscerate

Sinister Strike – 7051.7
Blade Flurry – 6989.4
Adrenaline Rush – 6986.1
Slice and Dice - #VALUE error

Using Rupture: 18/51/2 baseline is Killing Spree and Rupture

Slice and Dice – 7034.5
Sinister Strike – 7033.5
Blade Flurry – 7021.7
Adrenaline Rush – 7021.1
Eviscerate – 6999.6

The best outcome for me is 7051.7 using Rupture-Free cycle with Sinister Strike glyph. If I change the to the Slice and Dice glyph in that setup… I get errors. I believe that is because it is requiring less than one combo point to keep Slice and Dice up long enough to Eviscerate. The sheet must be using an xS/xE cycle instead of xS/xE/xE.

When switching to rupture glyph and talents, my dps goes down. However, in this setup… the Slice and Dice glyph is pulling ahead of the Sinister Strike glyph by 1 dps.

Okay, a couple of points of clarification here.

First, as I stated a few posts up, there is a bug with Glyph of SS. I investigated it last night, and it appears the main issue is that if your CP gen gets too low - for instance, if you don't have the Glyph of SS - the high-rupture cycle (the one used with 4/5 T8), breaks. I am in the process of fixing this.

Second, yes, the Evis-free cycle with GoSnD instead of GoSS has a minor bug as well. I am similarly investigating this.

Third, it's worth pointing out that both of these bugs appear to be only bugs of edge cases - that is, the answers provided from the sheet in usual cases are correct, it's only when you do something wierd like taking off Glyph of SS that they run into issues.

Fourth, I have found another bug myself that's a bit more substantive; the main implication is that the sheet may not always detect the optimal cycle correctly if you have an unusual combination of spec entered. I'm working on a fix for this as well.

Finally, contrary to what the last few posters have asserted, the 1.3 sheets aren't using any cycle at all. They're not using 5s5r5e, they're not using xSxE, they're not using xSxExE. They are using an attack priority based method that defies easy classification in this way. So please stop referring to what "cycle" the sheet is modeling, because the answer is that it's not modeling a cycle at all.