Combat and Mutilate Spreadsheets (Obsolete as of 4.0.x) - Page 48

Contalyst · 05/26/09, 3:27 PM

Originally Posted by Cavaletta

Honestly I have no idea how you all are seeing Assassination as good as Combat spec. From all that I have seen the difference is much greater than these theorycrafts would have you believe. It's just not a coincidence that the vast majority of rogues raiding in high end guilds are combat. Seen as high as 6400-6500dps from combat on fights like Ignis and XT...straight destroying all other dps, haven't seen any HFB get that high.

I have to disagree with this statement 100%. Unless you are talking 10 man I have seen higher DPS on these fights as HfB and our 2 HfB rogues are about 500 DPS higher then our combat rogue. Now a slight factor in that is gear, however it would at best put us on equal footing on most fights. XT this week with the closest gear at the time, HfB outpaced the combat by ~700 dps.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
-this isnt even with a 100% geared raid with some underpar players, I believe a better tuned raid group can achieve higher especially on a figth like XT with double dmg on the heart.

Now, unless i was to completly regem and get a new MH aside from CG I cant say for 100% but my gear with Combat i noticed a slight drop in dps on fights like general and XT. Granted however i can see Combat pulling ahead on a fight like Yogg and even on some of the hard modes. Untill then or i get an offspec set i think mutilate will pull ahead for a lot of rogues in game untill BiS gear is available to them.

chalon · 05/26/09, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by Mavanas

I have asked this question before, but noone had an answer. Do you know if Blood of the Old God and similar trinkets can proc of rupture crit ticks (with 4p T8). Also do you know if Grim Toll and similar trinkets can proc of initial application of rupture?

I'm not sure. I believe I vendored my Mirror of Truth, too, but if I can find it I should be able to test out the rupture crit thing.

I don't see why the initial rupture application wouldn't be able to proc Grim Toll, pretty certain it just counts as a MH swing as all other finishers do (since it can proc your MH poisons).

Arakas · 05/26/09, 4:21 PM

Originally Posted by Cavaletta

Honestly I have no idea how you all are seeing Assassination as good as Combat spec. From all that I have seen the difference is much greater than these theorycrafts would have you believe. It's just not a coincidence that the vast majority of rogues raiding in high end guilds are combat. Seen as high as 6400-6500dps from combat on fights like Ignis and XT...straight destroying all other dps, haven't seen any HFB get that high.

You should also realize that one reason that many of the top guilds' rogues are running combat is to provide an additional buff for the raid.

Their lineups are more likely to have a Ret Pally providing the Master Poisoner equivilent buff (and another aura) than an Arms Warrior providing the Savage Combat equivilent. So, if they have a ret pally in the raid, do they choose equal DPS plus an additional buff (combat), or just the DPS (muti)?

No, this is not always the case; but often.

Cavaletta · 05/26/09, 4:53 PM

Originally Posted by Contalyst

I have to disagree with this statement 100%. Unless you are talking 10 man I have seen higher DPS on these fights as HfB and our 2 HfB rogues are about 500 DPS higher then our combat rogue. Now a slight factor in that is gear, however it would at best put us on equal footing on most fights. XT this week with the closest gear at the time, HfB outpaced the combat by ~700 dps.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
-this isnt even with a 100% geared raid with some underpar players, I believe a better tuned raid group can achieve higher especially on a figth like XT with double dmg on the heart.

Now, unless i was to completly regem and get a new MH aside from CG I cant say for 100% but my gear with Combat i noticed a slight drop in dps on fights like general and XT. Granted however i can see Combat pulling ahead on a fight like Yogg and even on some of the hard modes. Untill then or i get an offspec set i think mutilate will pull ahead for a lot of rogues in game untill BiS gear is available to them.

I noticed you re-gemmed agility prior to receiving the 4pc bonus. Were you doing this same kind of damage before w/ ap gems? I assume your mutilate is being separated by either hand in WoL since it shows it twice.

I must admit...I am perplexed on what I could be doing better for my damage if HFB can do this much. Technically speaking there is no fault w/ my tactics/rotations/etc, but I am consistently behind our combat rogue by 400-500dps. The only thing that might be holding me back are my weapons, particularly my offhand...

The World of Warcraft Armory

compared to our combat rogue (he was doing ~400dps more than me w/ his calamity's grasp, he just recently got masticator)...

The World of Warcraft Armory

demibaka · 05/26/09, 5:26 PM

Originally Posted by Cavaletta

I noticed you re-gemmed agility prior to receiving the 4pc bonus. Were you doing this same kind of damage before w/ ap gems? I assume your mutilate is being separated by either hand in WoL since it shows it twice.

I must admit...I am perplexed on what I could be doing better for my damage if HFB can do this much. Technically speaking there is no fault w/ my tactics/rotations/etc, but I am consistently behind our combat rogue by 400-500dps. The only thing that might be holding me back are my weapons, particularly my offhand...

The World of Warcraft Armory

compared to our combat rogue (he was doing ~400dps more than me w/ his calamity's grasp, he just recently got masticator)...

The World of Warcraft Armory

Joonlol's gear appears to generally be of a higher Ilevel than yours. That combined with the T8 4 piece bonus is probably enough to account for the dps disparity you noticed, even without his Masticator.

Cavaletta · 05/26/09, 5:41 PM

Originally Posted by demibaka

Joonlol's gear appears to generally be of a higher Ilevel than yours. That combined with the T8 4 piece bonus is probably enough to account for the dps disparity you noticed, even without his Masticator.

The 4pc was recent aswell.

Mana · 05/26/09, 5:59 PM

Has anyone here gemmed ArP with just mace spec and without Mjolnir trinket? Or should ArP always be stacked only when you have the trinket? I have the offhand mace already, but not using it without a mainhand and just using Calamitys + webbed death atm and gemmed agi. I'm sure it would be an upgrade over what I currently have, especially considering Golden Saronite Dragon is quite far away for us most likely.

Enduro · 05/26/09, 6:14 PM

Originally Posted by velocibrad

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. The numbers from "these theorycrafts" show what we are capable of in an optimal situation. They are proven by mathematical equations and simulations and lots of time spent into figuring out exactly how it all works. Is it likely that we will be in optimal situations? No not really, but there is clearly proof out there that your statement is flat out wrong.

As a side note, just so you know, I was pulling ~6200 on Ignis before getting my 4pT8 bonus. So yeah, HFB can keep up with those combat numbers you stated.

The sheets also consider BiS equipment across the board, which few are ever going to obtain. Specs such as combat benefit from BiS gear more than Assassination (Combat gets more benefit from the set bonuses and the ArP in Ulduar).

I believe the reason you see more Combat Rogues in the top tier guilds is because it's traditional, it's easier to obtain combat weapons right now, they have more raid utility and because they will see a slight DPS increase at BiS levels, which these guilds will obtain. I mean, Combat *is* better than Assassination at BiS levels in Ulduar, after all.

I still play Assassination because I won't be close to BiS for awhile and it's just more fun to me.

Grunge · 05/26/09, 6:19 PM

Originally Posted by Mana

Has anyone here gemmed ArP with just mace spec and without Mjolnir trinket? Or should ArP always be stacked only when you have the trinket? I have the offhand mace already, but not using it without a mainhand and just using Calamitys + webbed death atm and gemmed agi. I'm sure it would be an upgrade over what I currently have, especially considering Golden Saronite Dragon is quite far away for us most likely.

Caress of Insanity seems to be the only compareable Main-hand, at least CG shows as superior to Vulmir with my current gear.
While for a non-human Masticator+Combatant and CoI+Stonerender are very close to each other (3dps in favor of the maces with my current gear and arp gems), for a human Serilas+Void Sabre is superior to both (roughly 25-30dps~)

However ultimately you have to go with what drops.

Also for future reference, simply consult the spreadsheet.

Grunge · 05/27/09, 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by Cavaletta

wouldn't mace spec's inherit armor pen be more valuable than the 5% crit from cqc?

Yes, it would, but the root is that there's no 1.4 swords or maces. So while both Mace and Sword spec are superior to CQC, they both suffer from a 1.5 offhand.
Someone posted rough estimate EP values for each spec, but I can't find them at the moment.

xore · 05/27/09, 6:58 AM

i noticed that on your combat spreadsheet you dont have imp. eviscerate on the talent tree build.
why not?

mdn · 05/27/09, 7:25 AM

Originally Posted by xore

i noticed that on your combat spreadsheet you dont have imp. eviscerate on the talent tree build.
why not?

Because it's a worse spec than the other alternatives, which are available.

Farz · 05/27/09, 8:15 AM

I read that Dark Matter wasn't fully modeled in the spreadsheets because of the lack of informations about it.
I wonder if Aldriana got the info needed and the time to model it, because to me, it appears to be the BiS mutilate trinket, but i'm wondering if i should pair it with the Blood of Old God or Mjolnir Runestone.

Istaril · 05/27/09, 9:59 AM

Originally Posted by Enduro

The sheets also consider BiS equipment across the board, which few are ever going to obtain. Specs such as combat benefit from BiS gear more than Assassination (Combat gets more benefit from the set bonuses and the ArP in Ulduar).

Actually, seeing as Assassination has better DPE, I'd say assassination benefits more from the 2pT8 (The fact that you loose some DP ticks to Envenom likely offset by faster DP restacking after breaks/jousts, and better DP proc rates favour mutilate's FoK over Combat's).

The ArP certainly favours combat more, mind!

Cheeseus · 05/27/09, 11:05 AM

Reviewing [Guise of the Midgard Serpent] in the gear section, I noted 146 AP, which matches the base amount. Reading the following:

Note that all socket bonuses are added directly into the gear. This is because, as a Jewelcrafter (which, at this point, all serious rogues really want to be), getting all socket bonuses is pretty clearly optimal and easy, so rather than adding UI around them I just added them in. If you don't want to use all the socket bonuses, you'll have to take them out manually.

leads me to believe this should be 178 AP.

Am I missing something blatantly obvious?