If you test with a fixed-damage ability like gouge, you'll see that you get the bonus as long as a poison is present, even if the graphic (and the combat log) would indicate otherwise. It really is just a display bug.
Okay, so when using the speadsheet I get about the same EP value for crit and haste, so I'm trying to choose between 10 agi/10 crit, and 10 agi/10 haste. The spreadsheet shows about .2 dps gain per haste gem, but with different combinations sometimes crit comes ahead. So, I'm trying to find what would probably be most optimal, and what I've come up with is that if you gem crit you will get a dps benefit when AoEing, but haste you will not. Other than that the single target dps is negligible.
Does anyone have any other reason why you would gem for haste over crit, when crit affects your AoE?
Thats a decision that you need to answer entirely on your own. Something to keep in mind is your current raiding content. If you're in content that requires a lot of AoE from rogues (starting off with some Uld HMs for example), then maybe you value crit more, but if you're focusing on single target DPSing bosses in some other content, then the highest single target DPS might be what you want (which in this case sounds like a mix of Deadly and Deft Ametrines). Sounds like you've got all the info you need, just have to make the decision for yourself.
When you switch to double wound setups, haste tends to win outright - and as double wound has some advantages on a number of current progression fights, that's an advantage worth considering.
Also, for AoE, Crit is better than Haste only insofar as Prey on the Weak is active, and there's some notable circumstances where this isn't the case.
If you test with a fixed-damage ability like gouge, you'll see that you get the bonus as long as a poison is present, even if the graphic (and the combat log) would indicate otherwise. It really is just a display bug.
i've tested it a few hours ago. (i was naked and had just equipped my weapons)
gouge damage without poisons : 133
gouge damage with WP (refreshed) : 133
gouge damage with DP : 138
i don't know who did your tests some time ago. he was wrong! it's 100% NOT a display bug.
I was convinced that it was only a display bug, but after reading your post I did the test too: removed my trinkets and used unenchanted weapons, so no procs will mess with the results:
no poisons: 848-849 dmg
dp: 882-883 dmg
wp: 848-883 (with an average of 872 in 10 hits)
~3 hits out of the total weren't affected by the buff, wp was present for the whole duration of the test.
Here you can see recount data for the 3 tests(the order in the image is: No poisons, wp, dp).
Using 3.2.2 ArP conversions and Agility gemming, 2T8 and 265 passive ArP with neither of the magic trinkets, I'm finding that the beta 4 sheet is showing an Evis cycle as within 2-4 DPS of a Low Rupture cycle (higher or lower depending on whether or not it's set to use Tricks on cooldown). Switching from a Rupture setup to an Evis one pushes the EP of Agility from 1.98 to 2.03.
This struck me as a little odd since it goes against the conventional wisdom that quite a bit of ArP is required for Eviscerate to be worth it. The only plausible explanation I can think of is that I've found a niche mixture of Crit and ArP that makes Eviscerate more efficient than non-critting Ruptures, but in case this is actually a bug in the cycle calculations, I've decided to upload the two versions of the sheet to filefront for you. My hit chance is quite low (below the poison cap with raid buffs) but I made sure I wasn't crit capping even during a Greatness proc in case that causes some sort of edge condition error in the calcs.
So, I've been working on an updated Mutilate sheet for a while, and finally have something worth posting (if decidedly still beta). As usual with stuff I classify as beta, it is more or less guaranteed that there are bugs - there's a couple I know about (see list below), but there's probably quite a few that I don't know about as well. So, as usual, if you find anything that seems weird, let me know and I'll take a look.
Basically, this is the calculations from the previous mutilate sheet stuffed into the UI of the combat sheet, with some minor revisions to calculations to be more consistent with the way things are done in the Combat 1.3 beta sheets (so as to improve accuracy of straight-across comparisons between them), plus fixes for a bunch of bugs I found while working on it. So hopefully it's a bit more accurate as well as being updated with new gear.
Also, all the 3.2.2 changes have been made.
In terms of using the sheet, there's a couple key differences relative to the Combat 1.3 betas:
1) Cycle determination is not automatic, and that's, frankly, unlikely to change. So where 1.3 beta 4 reports the cycle you should use, this one has selection boxes.
2) Some talents are essential for the model to work, and are thus hard-coded; these talents have no selection dropdown, and the value is greyed out to represent this.
In terms of known issues:
1) Rupture-free cycles are not yet implemented.
2) Cold Blood and Murder don't do anything yet.
3) Any bugfixes to the gear or recommendation pages that have been made since 1.3 beta 2 or so have not been ported over. I don't know if there actually are any of these, as I haven't really had a chance to check, but I make no guarantees that there aren't some bugs of that sort (improper item stats, etc.) that I haven't had a chance to catch.
3) Any bugfixes to the gear or recommendation pages that have been made since 1.3 beta 2 or so have not been ported over. I don't know if there actually are any of these, as I haven't really had a chance to check, but I make no guarantees that there aren't some bugs of that sort (improper item stats, etc.) that I haven't had a chance to catch.
Quick catch: Dark Determination bracers are still listed with 50 Haste, instead of the proper 50 Hit. This was also a bug in the last combat release, and has been mentioned previously I believe.
Before you start to drift, and your soul begins to scream.
I just wanted to tell you, that you're listening to a dream.
3) Any bugfixes to the gear or recommendation pages that have been made since 1.3 beta 2 or so have not been ported over. I don't know if there actually are any of these, as I haven't really had a chance to check, but I make no guarantees that there aren't some bugs of that sort (improper item stats, etc.) that I haven't had a chance to catch.
Checking "Recommend Expertise Gems" on the settings tab doesn't seem to do anything for me (or at least what I think it should); it appears to be undefined.
Works for me in brief testing - that option allows Expertise gems to be recommended over agility gems if the value of the gem is high enough. So if your Agi EP is higher than your Expertise EP, it't not going to do anything; but if it's not, it's the difference between getting a full expertise recommendation for every slot versus getting useful recommendations and allowing people to figure out for themselves how much expertise they want to socket.
Works for me in brief testing - that option allows Expertise gems to be recommended over agility gems if the value of the gem is high enough. So if your Agi EP is higher than your Expertise EP, it't not going to do anything; but if it's not, it's the difference between getting a full expertise recommendation for every slot versus getting useful recommendations and allowing people to figure out for themselves how much expertise they want to socket.
Ah, then I've clearly misunderstood the intent. My assumption was that the sheet would recommend Exp by default if Exp was of higher value than Agi. But in cases where Exp was of a lower value than Agi you could use this to "force" gearing/gem'ing to the Expertise cap (similar to the ArP option of the Combat sheet).
The option is actually to "Allow Expertise Gem Recommendation" then?
Something to check: the sheet is telling me that Pyrite Infuser is relatively significant (10dps) upgrade over Mark of Supremacy in circumstances where my hit rating is only 280 - 313. I find this surprising given the comparative stats and item levels and I get the opposite (expected) result using the Roguecraft sheet. I could have understood this if my hit had been higher but this may be wrong/needs checking.
In addtion I noticed that the potion of speed setting (Yes/No) doesn't seem to do anything.
Something to check: the sheet is telling me that Pyrite Infuser is relatively significant (10dps) upgrade over Mark of Supremacy in circumstances where my hit rating is only 280 - 313. I find this surprising given the comparative stats and item levels and I get the opposite (expected) result using the Roguecraft sheet. I could have understood this if my hit had been higher but this may be wrong/needs checking.
In addtion I noticed that the potion of speed setting (Yes/No) doesn't seem to do anything.
The roguecraft sheet has always been a little "generous" in the dps field in comparison to Ald's sheet. Remember too that murder is not active on this beta sheet, so there will be a significant difference on murderable targets.
I was confused about my Total Gear Stats in the new Mutilate Sheet, so I found that in the Mutilate_1.1_(beta_1) Sheet all Stats provided from Off Hand Weapons are not added to the Total Stats.
The option is actually to "Allow Expertise Gem Recommendation" then?
Basically. Since with most gear setups you only need a few expertise gems to cap, I figured people might want to see the recommendation for what to do with all their other gem slots, so provided an option for it.
Originally Posted by Druss
In addtion I noticed that the potion of speed setting (Yes/No) doesn't seem to do anything.
Elaborate, please? Toggling this correctly updates the DPS in the sheet as uploaded - under what circumstances/gear/buffs/etc. are you finding that it doesn't?
Originally Posted by Cryptine
I was confused about my Total Gear Stats in the new Mutilate Sheet, so I found that in the Mutilate_1.1_(beta_1) Sheet all Stats provided from Off Hand Weapons are not added to the Total Stats.
Good catch. I've updated the original link with a new version that has this (and a few of the other bugs that have been mentioned) fixed.
Just got the 245 Bloodfang helm from Onyxia, but it appears only the 232 version is in the spreadsheet. Any tips on how to edit the stats to reflect the 245 helm? 245 Helm seems very good in comparison to everything else, but the 258 Tier piece.
Using 3.2.2 ArP conversions and Agility gemming, 2T8 and 265 passive ArP with neither of the magic trinkets, I'm finding that the beta 4 sheet is showing an Evis cycle as within 2-4 DPS of a Low Rupture cycle (higher or lower depending on whether or not it's set to use Tricks on cooldown). Switching from a Rupture setup to an Evis one pushes the EP of Agility from 1.98 to 2.03.
This struck me as a little odd since it goes against the conventional wisdom that quite a bit of ArP is required for Eviscerate to be worth it. The only plausible explanation I can think of is that I've found a niche mixture of Crit and ArP that makes Eviscerate more efficient than non-critting Ruptures, but in case this is actually a bug in the cycle calculations, I've decided to upload the two versions of the sheet to filefront for you. My hit chance is quite low (below the poison cap with raid buffs) but I made sure I wasn't crit capping even during a Greatness proc in case that causes some sort of edge condition error in the calcs.
Do you have the option to "Use Agi value for ArPen?" checked yes? I noticed the same thing when I had it on - Evis only cycle (even when specced/glyphed for Rupture), yet the sheet was recommending Agi in every slot. Turn that option off (but still use 3.2.2 ArP values), and I get an Evis only cycle that's heavy on the ArP gems, more in-line with the conventional wisdom.
Someone more knowledgeable about the sheet may be able to elaborate.
No no, it's not on and it only recommends the Eviscerate cycle when I gem and glyph for it. In light of the recent discussions on the subject though, I found it odd that Eviscerate would cross the threshold and start beating Rupture cycles even when I'm nowhere near hard or soft capped for ArP. Plausible, but odd. I uploaded the sheets in case it's diagnosed as a legitimate bug (if not, then fine).
For those who'd like a rough estimate on what the DPS would be after taking into account the Murder talent, just modify cell D1 on the Equipment sheet to have the following code:
Originally Posted by Druss
In addtion I noticed that the potion of speed setting (Yes/No) doesn't seem to do anything.
Elaborate, please? Toggling this correctly updates the DPS in the sheet as uploaded - under what circumstances/gear/buffs/etc. are you finding that it doesn't?
I checked this and it seems that if you have "Use Tricks on Cooldown" toggled to NO then the potion of speed setting no longer does anything and (I think) it is set to NO by default no matter how you toggle it. When I toggled Use Tricks on Cooldown to "Yes" the potion of speed setting functioned as expected.
Still can't repro, so something else must be going on. With the default beta 2 sheet:
Base DPS (both yes): 9539.1
No Potion DPS (Tricks yes, Potion no): 9501.6
No Tricks DPS (Tricks no, Potion yes): 9695.0
Neither DPS (both no): 9657.4
That is: Haste potion increases DPS whether or not tricks is on, and Tricks reduces DPS whether or not you use a haste potion. So there must be something else going on.
09/20/09, 1:34 PM
