Combat and Mutilate Spreadsheets (Obsolete as of 4.0.x) - Page 54

Mavanas · 06/04/09, 6:46 PM

With no points in vile poisons and no points in improved eviscerate and no eviscerate glyph in BiS combat gear with arp gems, Envenom does slightly more damage than Eviscerate. However the loss of deadly poison and associated energy income makes 15/51/5 do less damage if you allow to weave in envenoms, using 4 DP stack rule in the simulation.

So long story short, the damage done by a move is only part of the story, you also have to consider the loss of deadly poison.

Wagimus · 06/04/09, 6:56 PM

Thanks Mavanas. So are you implying that 15/51/5 (using evis) should do more dmg than 18/51/2 (vile envenom)? It seems envenom does more damage against bosses in uld. I know there will be a loss of poison, but it seems armor effects eviscerate too much.

Mavanas · 06/04/09, 7:58 PM

Originally Posted by Wagimus

Thanks Mavanas. So are you implying that 15/51/5 (using evis) should do more dmg than 18/51/2 (vile envenom)? It seems envenom does more damage against bosses in uld. I know there will be a loss of poison, but it seems armor effects eviscerate too much.

Yes that is also true, 15/51/5 with eviscerate does more single target DPS than 18/51/2 with envenom.

turbare · 06/05/09, 3:23 AM

Aldriana, just wanted to say thanks, a big big thanks, for revamping the UI for the spreadsheet, it's awesome now, keep up the good work <3.

Also, a side question, the sheet shows that running swords Malice + Remorse is significantly better than Calamity's Graps + Golem-shard Sticker.
Care to confirm/infirm?

Ratak - US KT · 06/05/09, 3:46 AM

Originally Posted by Mavanas

Yes that is also true, 15/51/5 with eviscerate does more single target DPS than 18/51/2 with envenom.

What about 18/51/2 with Eviscerate? In both the simulation and the combat sheet I find that with my (current) Rogues gear this does more than 15/51/5 (actually I might need to check this as I upgraded the MH sword and the DMC: Greatness comes on Tuesday). Cycle needs more attention though as it's tighter than it would be on 15/51/5 so I was wondering whether that is just a quirk of the current gear level or a normal finding.

Aéquitas · 06/05/09, 4:34 AM

I must say I really love the overkill change. It plays so much smoother then the "save energy and burst" thing we had before. Also starting the fight with 40 seconds of constantly having 30% extra energieregen is great.

On the topic of mad energieregeneration. On Kologarn I'm boosting up my energieregen and damage by constantly switching between targets as Mutilate. I start on the body getting everything running (HFB,SND,DP and a Rupture) then I switch to the right arm, envenom to refresh SND and Rupture on this one as well. Switch to the left arm get Rupture and DP up etc.

The ruptures on all 3 targets are great for dmg and DP ticking on 2-3 targets constantly, combined with the new overkill is really nice. Its also an easy way to get the disarmed achievement since by doing this the left arm is on 20% or so when Kologarn hits 35%.

Istaril · 06/05/09, 9:18 AM

You're also spending time attacking non-debuffed targets, not contributing to breaking stone grip quite as quickly, and losing out on envenom hits and envenom buff uptime. I'm far from certain it's optimal, even for mutilate, although I suspect it might work if you've got 4pT8 and Serrated blades (increasing the relative value of having rupture on several targets).

And you'll still be far from optimal, as you're forgoing Blade Flurry, which is essentially a >10% dps boost on this fight.

Mavanas · 06/05/09, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Ratak - US KT

What about 18/51/2 with Eviscerate? In both the simulation and the combat sheet I find that with my (current) Rogues gear this does more than 15/51/5 (actually I might need to check this as I upgraded the MH sword and the DMC: Greatness comes on Tuesday). Cycle needs more attention though as it's tighter than it would be on 15/51/5 so I was wondering whether that is just a quirk of the current gear level or a normal finding.

I suspect it has something to do with gear. Although it surprises me that 18/51/2 with eviscerate does more than 18/51/2 with envenom, I do remember that the latter outperformed 15/51/5 with eviscerate at some levels of gear when gemming for agility. As soon as you get GT or MR and start gemming for armor pen, 15/51/5 pulls ahead of 18/51/2.

I am personally specced 18/51/2 as an offspec, but for a totally different reason. I use it for aoe heavy situations, like Thorim, coupled with double wound, slow offhand dagger and FOK glyph. In a situation like that due to vile poisons, 18/51/2 pulls ahead (by 4.5% based on number crunching).

Aéquitas · 06/05/09, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by Istaril

You're also spending time attacking non-debuffed targets, not contributing to breaking stone grip quite as quickly, and losing out on envenom hits and envenom buff uptime. I'm far from certain it's optimal, even for mutilate, although I suspect it might work if you've got 4pT8 and Serrated blades (increasing the relative value of having rupture on several targets).

And you'll still be far from optimal, as you're forgoing Blade Flurry, which is essentially a >10% dps boost on this fight.

I do have 4 piece T8 which helps a ton and might indeed tip the scales in my favour. I have 2 reasons for not being combat on this fight.

1) The fact that my mutilate gear is better and I play better as Mutilate (don't enjoy combat that much anymore)
2) I had 2 occasions where I dpsed the left arm down because of Bladeflurry seconds before we killed the right arm which combined with lag resulted in a whipe.

I might try it out normal style again next week, since I have been doing this for the last 4 weeks or so. At the moment I'm around 1k dps on top of the rest doing it this way so I never really bothered to go back to the old way. Not gonna bother with combat though until I get some 10 man hardmode weapons.

Aarcani · 06/05/09, 6:57 PM

Unless your guild kills the left arm anyways, spending any time DPSing the left arm could be falsely inflating your dps. You might be doing more DPS, but a portion of that damage isn't helping your raid at all. Keeping rupture up on the body and right arm might be valid.

Kitteh · 06/05/09, 11:43 PM

A quick question here as I think I saw something about this but unable to track it down now.

Aldriana's (combat) sheet always assumes a 3 finisher cycle. With swords I belive a 2 finisher pulled slightly ahead? Is this something anyone knows anything about? I'm far from able to "hack" this into the sheet (sockets was easy, this not so). I've now got my hands on Malice+Remorse which are a dps upgrade obviously over Calamity's/Goldem Shard but i'm pretty sure a 2 finisher cycle would take the swords higher?

I know this ones a slightly hand-holdy question, I should just go hit some 25 mans and see how my dps goes but interested to know if anyone had alternative info to the sheet on this before I waste Beserking on 2 more weapons.

Kukulcan · 06/06/09, 2:31 AM

Originally Posted by Kitteh

A quick question here as I think I saw something about this but unable to track it down now.

Aldriana's (combat) sheet always assumes a 3 finisher cycle. With swords I belive a 2 finisher pulled slightly ahead? Is this something anyone knows anything about? I'm far from able to "hack" this into the sheet (sockets was easy, this not so). I've now got my hands on Malice+Remorse which are a dps upgrade obviously over Calamity's/Goldem Shard but i'm pretty sure a 2 finisher cycle would take the swords higher?

I know this ones a slightly hand-holdy question, I should just go hit some 25 mans and see how my dps goes but interested to know if anyone had alternative info to the sheet on this before I waste Beserking on 2 more weapons.

I don't know the spreadsheet's values for you but in my case Malice+remorse aren't a dps upgrade over CG\Golem shard.

Malice+Rune Etched blade is tho.

Anyway, i don't think changing from CQC to Sword spec would change the cycle.

Jonnyc · 06/06/09, 5:54 PM

On my combat spreadsheet currently being 18/51/2 is the optimal spec. Why after having 4 piece t8 does this change to 15/51/5?

Baerbel · 06/06/09, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Jonnyc

On my combat spreadsheet currently being 18/51/2 is the optimal spec. Why after having 4 piece t8 does this change to 15/51/5?

When switching from 2/5 to 5/5 relentless strikes, the spreadsheet will assume a different cycle. For example instead of 5snd/5rup/5evi it will switch to 4snd/5/5 due to the extra energy you get back from finishers. 4t8 does increase your rupture dmg, relentless strikes enables you to have a higher rupture uptime.

Dextar · 06/08/09, 12:59 AM

I just wanted to post what may be a bug, when using maces and mace spec switching from Night Elf to Dwarf gives a -10dps decrease... shouldn't you get an increase because of the 5exp you get?