I was under the asumption that the eviscerate only cycle would trump the high rupture cycle given considerable upgrades in 4 slots.
When I use my current gear, gem agil for high rupture, it only falls behind ~60dps when going with significant upgrades (w/ armpen gems), as noted:
Conquerer Terrorblade Helmet --> Hood of lethal Intent
Conquerer Terrorblad Chest ---> Knightbane Carapace
Conquerer Terrorblade Gauntlets ---> Silver Assasin gauntlets
Valours Terrorblade legs ---> VanCleef's Legpants of Triumph
I am setting, Use 3.2.2 ArmPen Conversation to YES (seems logical choice).
Are those using the Eviscerate only cycle seeing this low - fair dps gain from switching from high rupturer? I was hoping for something a little more signifcant.
note: I am using the 1.3(beta4) sheet.
Try changing Hood of Lethal Intent to Bloodfang Mask (25 man. Make sure to check the correct stats are in the SS) and Knightbane Carapace to Armor of Shifting Shadows (10 or 10H). They will likely show a larger increase and they are both not very difficult to get.
ArP gets better the more you have, and the amount you gain may also depend on if you have a GT or MR. Trust the spreadsheet, even the beta version looks entirely functional (except for the Serrated Blades spec, it's giving a larger DPS increase than the 15/51/5 and no idea why it would be viable now as opposed to during T7/8)
I'm not sure it's so much a change in viability as a change in modeling. Particularly in 4/5 T8, the rupture uptimes computed in 1.3 are much higher than in 1.2, which makes Serrated Blades correspondingly more valuable.
Also note that Serrated Blades is generally more effective at low ArPen levels than high ArPen levels, so particularly if you're socketing Agi, don't have Mjolnir, or otherwise are running light on ArPen, it's going to make Serrated Blades relatively stronger.
The new version of Black Magic (weapon enchant) now gives the following:
Chance on spell hit to increase haste by 250 for 10 seconds.
Tested on PTR and it will proc off poisons. PPM seems pretty regular with usual buffs but in like 2 hours messing around with it I never saw a double proc, only refreshes. Wasn't logging with anything though so it may have just escaped my attention.
How's that stack up? I'd think with the move to evis cycles and higher ArP this may have a crack at toppling bezerking (at least on one hand)? 400AP vs 250 haste. It is 10 sec rather than the 15 of berzerking but what do we think?
Just Autohits with RDB in MH, don't wielding OH
No Hack 'n Slash spec
(I tested this at sept 25th, so my stats may change, if you check armory)
Some day later tested this proc with FoK at the 60er dummies in og. (no pics)
Sometimes 1 FoK procs the shadowbolt to 2 different targets, so i think its really nice for trash like the puppies of onyxia.
I send this at sept 25th to Aldriana via PM... but there comes no reaction/answer... so post this here, too.
fyi in your latest default combat sheet you decided to drop a point in ruthlessness 2/3 and put 5/5 in lethality, but according to your spreadsheet it would be better to keep 3/3 in ruthlessness and put only 4/5 in lethality.
Depends greatly on the situation. The direct damage loss according to the spreadsheet is pretty similar for a point of Ruthlessness, a point of Lethality, and a point of Improved Eviscerate; typically they spreadsheet to within 5 DPS of each other. However, from a practical perspective, sustained damage is not always the correct measure of DPS. On a number of ToC fights, what matters more than sustained DPS is burst DPS, and DPS through significant target switching. And in that scenario, the points of Lethality and Improved Eviscerate have somewhat more value than the spreadsheet might reflect, while Ruthlessness... does not. Hence, where to drop the point from is to some extent a matter of personal preference - a case can be made for any of them. I chose the one that I feel works best for me - which is exactly how you're supposed to use a spreadsheet.
Depends greatly on the situation. The direct damage loss according to the spreadsheet is pretty similar for a point of Ruthlessness, a point of Lethality, and a point of Improved Eviscerate; typically they spreadsheet to within 5 DPS of each other. However, from a practical perspective, sustained damage is not always the correct measure of DPS. On a number of ToC fights, what matters more than sustained DPS is burst DPS, and DPS through significant target switching. And in that scenario, the points of Lethality and Improved Eviscerate have somewhat more value than the spreadsheet might reflect, while Ruthlessness... does not. Hence, where to drop the point from is to some extent a matter of personal preference - a case can be made for any of them. I chose the one that I feel works best for me - which is exactly how you're supposed to use a spreadsheet.
Yeah sounds good just thought it would be interesting to come up with that situation cause I've never seen any discussion on that point. I totally agree that it depends what you prefer and like you say since of all the target switching in all in most fights some people might prefer burst on stuff like nether portals/volcanos while some people might prefer getting their rotation up as fast as possible on target switching since theres a lot of these too in ToC. So I don't think its fair to say that ruthlessness doesn't give fair advantages in dps burst fight I like to have my 5 cp as fast as I can so I can put that 5cp eviscerate on the portals, but yeah all that as change since I switched to assassination, gj on that new beta for mut.
I think people should take both opinions in consideration.
5 cp as fast as I can so I can put that 5cp eviscerate
But you're not going to get those combo points up any faster due to ruthlessness unless you're dpsing the mob long enough for you to do at least two finishers. If you only do one finisher, you gain nothing at all from ruthlessness. If you do two, the value of ruthlessness is half of what it is in the spreadsheet. If you do three, the value is 2/3 of the spreadsheets, etc. And when you know that one point of ruthlessness is roughly equal to the value of the other relevant talents. Then it's easy to arrive at the conclusion that if there's a lot of target switching involved, ruthlessness is the worst option.
Last edited by Palanuial : 10/04/09 at 11:47 PM.
Reason: Poor postingskills
We are talking of toc 25 man specific situation and when you move back and forth from jaraxxus, from the adds on anub'arak or the northred beast encounter you've got time to reach 5cp points a couple of times even on portal you've got time for 2 if you pool your energy well before.
Not sure if this goes too far into boss tactics, but you really shouldn't single target dps adds on Anub'arak in any case beside 10normal where only 1 add is present.
I am not sure if this is a 1.3 beta combat spreadsheet error, or if there is a specific reason that most rogues avoid Vile Poisons, but I Ctrl+F pages 51-current of this thread, trying to find the answer to this. Both my current gear, and the default spreadsheet gear show that 3/3 Vile Poisons is greater than 3 points in Relentless Strikes. Most theorycrafters, however, avoid Vile Poisons. Is this because it assumes 100% DP uptime, and in real situations, this is not always maintained? Thanks all!
Not sure if this goes too far into boss tactics, but you really shouldn't single target dps adds on Anub'arak in any case beside 10normal where only 1 add is present.
interrupts on hard mode?! Also you do have to change target to the adds in easy mode 25-man too at least in our strat. Blade furry to make sure you dammage both. Anyways I think thats out of the thread...
I'm sorry if this is a typical question, I didnt' see it, so I figured I'd post it here. According to your spreadsheet, and MAEP values taken from Shadowpanther, I got this calculation.
I'm sorry if this is a typical question, I didnt' see it, so I figured I'd post it here. According to your spreadsheet, and MAEP values taken from Shadowpanther, I got this calculation.
Am I missing something crucial in my estimating, or is that tier just dumb?
Well, the individual EP values of the gear pieces are going to shift according to your other gear pieces and such, but yes, the short answer is that the Tier 9 set bonuses are just not very good in comparison to the T8 4pc. Dot critting is very powerful. However, you can reach a gear point with T9 and some good offset pieces where you can move to a Ruptureless cycle/priority system, at which point the T8 4pc bonus wouldn't be doing you any good anyway. Of course, the Ruptureless cycle also nullifies the T9 2pc bonus, but it procs so rarely anyway that you're not missing out on much. You can find more discussion on this topic in the Rogue Gear thread (naturally).
I'm sorry if this is a typical question, I didnt' see it, so I figured I'd post it here. According to your spreadsheet, and MAEP values taken from Shadowpanther, I got this calculation.
Am I missing something crucial in my estimating, or is that tier just dumb?
Shadowpanther is way too simplistic for these forums. If it's good for anything, it's to see a list of new gear and what stats they have; relative equivalence values depend highly on your gear/other stats. But aside from that, yes: t9 bonuses suck compared to t8. HOWEVER: the "grand total" calculations show how bad of a source shadowpanther is; 5 iLevel 245s out DPS 4/5 t8, without any set bonuses.
Let's drop the Anub DPS discussion before I have to start cracking heads together. If you want to discuss rogue strategies for Anub easy mode, start a new "Rogues tips for ToC" thread. If you want to discuss rogue strategies for Anub Hard, wait till the moratorium is lifted, and then start that thread.
I just had a quick question about understanding your calculations on the latest Mutilate sheet. I was wondering where the extra value given to having Berserking on your MH weapon comes from. For example, on my MH (Black Knight's Rondel), Berserking gives a value of 179.93, and on my OH (Golem-Shard Sticker), Berserking gives a value of 160.47. I was just curious about why this is.
First, assuming weapons are of equal speed, the MH still gets more hits in, as finishers proc MH poison and enchants. Hence, even if you're using two weapons of equal speed, the MH will proc more, as it's hitting more.
Second, you're typically using a slower weapon in the MH than OH, which means you get a higher proc chance on instant attacks, which similarly increases uptime.
Thus, MH weapons tend to have higher uptime on Berserking (and Mongoose), hence it's worth more on the MH than it is on the OH.
A bit of background before I ask my question: I've been building two separate sets of gear (with a few interchangeable items), one for combat and one for Mutilate. The combat set has 5x245 offset pieces and is used with an Evis spec. The mutilate set makes use of 4pT8 and high rupture. For the record, I swap between these two regularly so I do not gem for ArP, regardless if it's a minor upgrade for my combat dps. Now on with the question...
Using your sheet, Ald, I couldn't come up with a spec that showed 5x245 beating out 4pT8 with Mutilate. It occurred to me last night, though, to try out an envenom only build in Mavanas's spreadsheet with the 5x245. The tests resulted in ~200 dps increase for me over 4pT8, without changing spec/glyphs (I imagine a minor dps increase with those modified). Is there a reasonable way to check an envenom only build in your Mutilate sheet? I see the dropdown at the top but it doesn't seem to do anything, and I recall you saying it wasn't currently enabled as of the last beta. At least with offset pieces, this seems like a very viable option, and frees up a couple points in Assassination for other useful talents to boot.
On a side note, I tested the gear + Envenom only (see armory for gear mockup) against Hard Mode Jaraxxus last night. It seemed to work out very well, and I plan to try it out on more fights this week. I do not use weapon swapping with this.
I was wondering if there was a way to switch the rotation to ruptureless or if you plan on adding this in the future? Sorry if this has already been asked/responded to before. I would like to see where I stand with glyph of evisc and 3/3 improved evisc over bloodsplatter and making relentless strikes 4/5. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
I was wondering if there was a way to switch the rotation to ruptureless or if you plan on adding this in the future? Sorry if this has already been asked/responded to before. I would like to see where I stand with glyph of evisc and 3/3 improved evisc over bloodsplatter and making relentless strikes 4/5. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Assuming you mean for Combat, the sheet will automatically tell you when to shift from high rupture to low rupture to ruptureless. Just plug in your gear, buffs, and talents as accurately as possible and flip back to the Equipment tab. At the top it will say Estimated DPS, OH Poison, and Cycle. Whatever the last two tell you are your best DPS options.
If you set those talents and glyphs, the sheet should almost certainly switch over to a ruptureless cycle being recommended, even with 4 tier 8. Once you've got a number with those glyphs and talents, switch glyphs/talents back to a rupture setup the sheet will more than likely suggest a rupture cycle. Compare the two numbers you get and you have your answer.
I did mean the combat spreadsheet and thanks for the info very cool! I still don't see where it says offhand poison but I am just using deadly for the time being.
10/01/09, 5:13 PM
