Combat and Mutilate Spreadsheets (Obsolete as of 4.0.x) - Page 59

traxis · 06/18/09, 2:24 AM

Originally Posted by Spaghett

On a side note i notice that a lot of the fights in uld are combat friendly (XT, yogg, etc), I mostly run 10man ulduar doing hard modes, is there a point where combat starts to outshine mut?

It's dependent on the fight, factors include if it is a single-target fight or involves adds, if the boss is affected by murder, and sometimes, a matter of utility. Generally, if it is a single target fight longer than about 3 minutes, and is affected by murder, mutilate will win. I strongly prefer combat for the majority of the fights though, and especially 3 elder freya to interrupt storm lasher casts with fan of knives, and also blade flurry+killing spree to take down iron roots before they become a problem.

Mavanas · 06/18/09, 12:43 PM

Regarding 51/13/7 vs 51/7/13, Aldriana's sheet does not measure the impact of white damage crit cap and it therefore underestimates the value of precision. When you are under crit cap, every point in precision converts 1% miss rate into 1% hit rate. If you are above the crit cap, it converts miss into crit directly, so the value of hit rating is higher. If you are gemming for agility and have DMC:G or DM, it's quite common to be above the crit cap. In my experience, dps per point of white hit can go up by as much as 20% when over crit cap with trinket procs, which is enough to put 51/13/7 over 51/7/13.

Dontmindme · 06/18/09, 12:55 PM

What are you talking about? Seriously, the white crit cap is mostly out of play. Glancing is 24%, most people are near Expertise cap, white miss rate around 10-12%. Unless you have in the range of a 64% crit rate, there is no crit cap. Maybe there is some obscure combination of procs that pushes your crit that high temporarily, but even then the duration will be minimal. Please don't be assigning unspecified value to hit rating that is only there (and slightly so) in edge cases.

Feist-Mok · 06/18/09, 1:19 PM

Originally Posted by Dontmindme

What are you talking about? Seriously, the white crit cap is mostly out of play. Glancing is 24%, most people are near Expertise cap, white miss rate around 10-12%. Unless you have in the range of a 64% crit rate, there is no crit cap. Maybe there is some obscure combination of procs that pushes your crit that high temporarily, but even then the duration will be minimal. Please don't be assigning unspecified value to hit rating that is only there (and slightly so) in edge cases.

[Dark Matter]

I push close to 60% crit with raid buffs as is. Even accounting for the Greatness Card being swapped out, a 13% crit proc would push me well over any sort of crit cap and my gear is not atypical of rogues for whom that trinket is in reach. While the DPS hypochondria going on in this forum amongst less informed posters (OMG MY DPS IS LOW WHAT IS CRIT CAP? AM I OVER IT?) is stupid, the crit cap is absolutely a factor worthy of consideration on the higher end. With the caveat of course, that if you don't have Dark Matter, it's probably irrelevant.

Edit: As an example of just how close it is, here's a parse of a Deconstructor kill from a while back: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis over 1100 melee swings, and only 25 white hits.

Mavanas · 06/18/09, 6:58 PM

Originally Posted by Dontmindme

What are you talking about? Seriously, the white crit cap is mostly out of play. Glancing is 24%, most people are near Expertise cap, white miss rate around 10-12%. Unless you have in the range of a 64% crit rate, there is no crit cap. Maybe there is some obscure combination of procs that pushes your crit that high temporarily, but even then the duration will be minimal. Please don't be assigning unspecified value to hit rating that is only there (and slightly so) in edge cases.

You just haven's done any calculations regarding crit cap. I do them daily and observe which gear sets are over the cap and which are not. I can give you plentiful examples:

Case 1 - No crit related trinkets:
Fang of Oblivion
Bladetwister
Skyforge Crossbow
T8.5 Helm
Pendulum of Infinity
Shoulderpads of the Intruder
Drape of the Faceless General
Conqueror's Terrorblade Breastplate
Solar Bindings
Conqueror's Terrorblade Gauntlets
Soul-Devouring Cinch
Conqueror's Terrorblade Legplates
Footpads of Silence
Band of Lights
Brann's Signet Ring
Mjolnir Runestone
Comet's Trail

Agility gems and food.

As a result, 3.3% over the crit cap 100% of the time.

Case 2 - same gear with DMC:G
Up to 12.1% over the crit cap, uptime of DMC:G is around 33% for mutilate.

Case 3 - same gear with Dark Matter
Up to 9.4% over the crit cap, uptime of DM is around 21% for mutilate.

Case 4 - my own very average setup
Daschal's Bite
Golem-Shard Sticker
Rising Sun
Conqueror's Terrorblade Helmet
Favor of the Dragon Queen
Shoulderpads of the Monolith
Aged Winter Cloak
Conqueror's Terrorblade Breastplate
Thrusting Bands
Conqueror's Terrorblade Gauntlets
Nimble Climber's Belt
Conqueror's Terrorblade Legplates
Footwraps of Vile Deceit
Strong-Handed Ring
Surge Needle Ring
Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Mirror of Truth

That's 4.6% over the crit cap 33% of the time.

Dontmindme · 06/19/09, 12:10 AM

Is that 60% tooltip with raid buffs? Because the 4.8% crit reduction against bosses adds that much additional gap.

I still think to outright pan 51/7/13 because of the crit cap is oversimplifying the situation. And to criticize the spreadsheet for not taking into account the edge case of using both Dark Matter and Greatness at the same time is pushing it.

I don't believe its a given that one will exceed the white crit cap, and if the spreadsheet is advising that 51/7/13 is better, I would believe it. We can add the caveat that if you are using proc effects that increase crit, one might check that cap and if both specs are very close you might want to lean toward 51/13/7, but I don't believe its a given 51/7/13 will always be inferior either.

I did notice some dodges in that Feist's parse. What that might also mean is that rather than panning 51/7/13, maybe one might consider gemming more Expertise when the crit cap is coming into play. And if one is so worried about this white crit cap, why are you using Agility food instead of straight AP?

I think there are far more options than just to say 51/13/7 is better, keep precision...

Mavanas · 06/19/09, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by Dontmindme

Is that 60% tooltip with raid buffs? Because the 4.8% crit reduction against bosses adds that much additional gap.

I still think to outright pan 51/7/13 because of the crit cap is oversimplifying the situation. And to criticize the spreadsheet for not taking into account the edge case of using both Dark Matter and Greatness at the same time is pushing it.

I don't believe its a given that one will exceed the white crit cap, and if the spreadsheet is advising that 51/7/13 is better, I would believe it. We can add the caveat that if you are using proc effects that increase crit, one might check that cap and if both specs are very close you might want to lean toward 51/13/7, but I don't believe its a given 51/7/13 will always be inferior either.

I did notice some dodges in that Feist's parse. What that might also mean is that rather than panning 51/7/13, maybe one might consider gemming more Expertise when the crit cap is coming into play. And if one is so worried about this white crit cap, why are you using Agility food instead of straight AP?

I think there are far more options than just to say 51/13/7 is better, keep precision...

I am trying to be as precise as I can, and it's not based on napkin math. I am getting the same result from the simulation spreadsheet. 51/13/7 coming out slightly ahead of 51/7/13 there. Even if you look at Aldriana's spreadsheet, the advantage 51/7/13 has is very small, so it's not surprising a white crit cap can push it the other way. And by the way, I am not saying anything we haven't discussed on this forums before, I am sure Aldriana will take white crit cap into account in his further releases, and it is not accurate to just ignore it. The issue is not big in most cases. Perhaps mutilate and nvHaT is where it matters most since many people stack agility.

Now I can address your specific concerns. In all the cases I've listed, the melee crit reduction of 4.8% against bosses is already taken into account. In neither of the cases I listed is there a double proc of DMC and DM, the second trinket is always Comet's Trail except for the last case which represents my current gear. But in my case I am using DMC and Mirror, so no double crit-related proc there too. As my first case shows, you don't even need any crit-proc trinkets to be over the cap.

You are right that when the crit cap is reached only when a trinket has procced, its effect is limited by its uptime. It does not automatically mean you should switch back to 51/13/7 when it happens. I'd use the simulation to figure it out, or you can wait for Aldriana to update his file and not worry about the issue too much because the difference crit capping makes is not huge. You are also right that if you are getting crit capped it might be advisable to switch to AP gems. In fact I find AP gemming to be superior to agility gemming in BiS gear with DM trinket. If you continue to gem for agility in BiS gear and DM trinket, you will be so much over the crit cap that DM's proc will be wasted on white damage. Does not mean that the trinket is worthless, just means it's value is lower. I do find that 51/13/7 pulls ahead of 51/7/13 even with AP gems and BiS gear but only by 9 dps, which is statistically indistinguishable at regular RNG levels, at least at 500 iterations.

Spaghett · 06/19/09, 2:32 AM

Mavanas I notice you run 18/51/2, I ran the numbers through the combat spreadsheet and found that with my gear 18/51/2 pulls 8dps ahead of 15/51/5. Most people choose the second spec to run with though, does 15/51/5 scale better with gear?

Kytrarewn · 06/19/09, 3:14 AM

Just per curiosity, if you're over the crit cap 100% of the time anyway, and AP scores slightly higher "DPS per point" on most spreadsheets that I've viewed than Agility, why wouldn't you replace two or three of your Agi gems with the AP equivalent and move on with your life? Sure, it affects seal fate, but the standard AEP (yes I know how flawed the EP system is) is calculated without taking into account, or at least well below any white crit cap at Agi=1/97. As such, it would seem to be common sense that when the crit gleaned from agility stops affecting 36% out of the 55% of my damage that's affected by agility's crit potential, the equivalence would drop somewhat.

Alternately, screw around with a bit of utility. Huge amounts of movement needed, huge amounts of raid healing needed, dropping 2 points in CQC for Fleet Footed or QR would hardly be that god-awful and wouldn't necessitate losing 3 points in precision in the fairly hit-lite T8.5 gear (excepting Blood of the Old God) and attempting to get that to or near 315 (assuming no Draenei in group) while at the same time trying to make up for the loss of permanent 3% crit and the minor difference in efficacy between AP and agility is a bit silly to boost 8% of my damage (granted I don't have 4pc yet) by 30% by throwing points into shitty wasted subtlety talents?

Also tack on 2.3% addition (per wowhead comments, I suck badly at ArPen calcs) to 55% of my damage, or about 3.6% DPS increase?

I think I'd rather take the 6.4% runspeed boost over the boot enchant, not to mention 12hit/12crit or whatever your enchant of preference is over Cat's Swiftness's 6agi, if it's all the same to you.

• Aldriana · 06/19/09, 4:10 AM

So, couple of points here.

First, it's worth noting that crit past the crit cap still isn't useless. It's certainly not exactly *good* at that point - in particular, it's only about half as valuable as it is below the cap. Which makes it a pretty wretched stat - worse than strength - but it's still not useless. And in particular, bailing on DPS talents for utility talents probably isn't quite smart. While the value of run speed is high on the scale of enchant values, it's relatively low compared to most talent points. Even after the value of crit is halfed by the crit cap, it still takes about 3.5 seconds of movement per minute to make Fleet Footed pass CQC, which strikes me as very much the exception and not the rule. It'll be worth it for Yogg... and perhaps for survival reasons on a few other fights - but most places, it just isn't.

Now, all that said: these sheets are not really set up in a way to easily cope with the crit cap, particularly when it's based on procs. And while I do have some ideas for how to fix that, it's not going to happen anytime soon. So in terms of crit capped performance, the modeling in this sheet is admittedly imprecise.

However - and this is important - crit capping has roughly no effect whatsoever on the relative merits of 51/13/7 versus 51/7/13. When you switch to subtelty talents, you lose 3% crit... but you *also* lose 3% hit. Thus, your crit is 3% lower, and your crit *cap* is 3% lower, so the amount of crit you "waste" due to the crit cap is exactly the same. Now, since their distributions of damage are slightly different, the relative responses to the loss of white crit will admittedly be *slightly* different, it's not going to be a major effect either way. Thus, in terms of deciding which spec is better, I think the modeling in the Mut sheet is still fine for making that decision.

So, lets be clear: the crit cap *is* relevant, it *does* come up, and the fact that the sheet doesn't model it *is* a problem. However, in terms of the specific question of Serrated Blades Mut vs CQC Mut, that shortcoming is irrelevant. You need to keep it in mind in terms of assessing the EP value of crit and agi in crit capped situations, but for comparing the specific specs, you do not. Nor would I do anything rash in terms of dumping crit talents for utility - DPS talents may be *reduced* in value, but they're hardly worthless.

Backgoode · 06/19/09, 12:55 PM

I found a small error in the combat sheet. It appears you're using .35 as the AP multiplier for eviscerate, when it should be .25. Also, the EP value for hit on the equipment page only displays the value for white hit. The EP number you use for for gems (and I assume items) appears to use this as well. The dps calculation still comes out correct, so I guess it's basically an aesthetics issue.

saedo · 06/19/09, 1:03 PM

Originally Posted by Backgoode

I found a small error in the combat sheet. It appears you're using .35 as the AP multiplier for eviscerate, when it should be .25. Also, the EP value for hit on the equipment page only displays the value for white hit. The EP number you use for for gems (and I assume items) appears to use this as well. The dps calculation still comes out correct, so I guess it's basically an aesthetics issue.

It's actually 0.07AP per combo point, so it is 0.35 at 5 points.

If you want to see the EP values for the other hits, unhide calcs sheet, look at line 364.

Kytrarewn · 06/19/09, 2:06 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Even after the value of crit is halfed by the crit cap, it still takes about 3.5 seconds of movement per minute to make Fleet Footed pass CQC, which strikes me as very much the exception and not the rule. It'll be worth it for Yogg... and perhaps for survival reasons on a few other fights - but most places, it just isn't.
Nor would I do anything rash in terms of dumping crit talents for utility - DPS talents may be *reduced* in value, but they're hardly worthless.

Yeah, i wasn't so much suggesting that I'd do that immediately, so much as I was suggesting that if I absolutely couldn't give up my agi gems in favor of AP gems (especially when we start worrying about epic +18 or +20 agi gems across the entirety of our gear), I'm not sure that switching from 51/13/7 to 51/7/13 is the single first choice that I'd make, especially given that the theoretical situations in which "OMG crit cap" are occasions when the hypothetical rogue had gemmed for specifically for agi per Mavanas's posts.

Still though- You think 3.5 seconds of movement out of 60 is the exception and not the rule? With the exception of Kologarn, Ignis and XT-002 (worthless to base your gearing on, though of course I haven't seen Algalon), at least 3.5 seconds out of every 60 is spent moving on nearly every encounter.

Razorscale- chasing the fucker around after he's been grounded (OK, he's shitty worthless content too)
Council- Chasing the target out of power runes, moving out of death runes, overload, Lightning Tendrils (dependent on the difficulty at which you attempt the fight).
Keepers- adds P1 and Freya P2 kited all over the place, obvious for Mimiron, running around thorim to avoid lightning (granted though you should stay in melee range WHILE you do that), avoiding and moving into shit on Hodir...
Auriaya- (shitty content again, yay) running back in after a fear, etc.
Vezax? Not really an issue for melee.

And of course Yogg as you mentioned.

So we have Vezax, and nominally XT-002 to worry about as "tank/spank worthwhile fights with less than 3.5 seconds of movement per minute".

Granted, that's including multiple gear selections from Algalon and all the hardmodes in the "3.3% over white crit cap 100% of the time" so it's a bit of a moot point.

When I said "worthless talent" for reference, I meant Camouflage or Sleight of hand or whatever subtlety talent you grab to make up the extra 3 points in Subtlety to grab something good.

I'm not at home at present, and don't have a version of Excel or OO to screw around with the spreadsheets. Obviously, I'm arguing with the 2 people who made the spreadsheets, so I expect that any little idiosyncrasies I discover would likely be a modeling artifact or little error as you know the inner workings of the sheet so I can't really expect to find anything useful.

Backgoode · 06/19/09, 2:27 PM

Originally Posted by saedo

It's actually 0.07AP per combo point, so it is 0.35 at 5 points.

If you want to see the EP values for the other hits, unhide calcs sheet, look at line 364.

According to Eviscerate - Spell - World of Warcraft, that's only true at the top end. You should be able to confirm this in game on your tooltip. Envenom and rupture have a static AP multiplier. As for the EP values, I know where to find them. I was simply stating they aren't being displayed on the equipment page, thus it being a mainly aesthetic issue.

*edit* Disregard the evisc crap, apparently I'm wrong.

• Aldriana · 06/19/09, 2:40 PM

Yes. It's been confirmed in game. The tooltip on wowhead is wrong. The observed AP coefficient for eviscerate in game is .35 for both minimum and maximum damage.