Sure. The question at hand is, since Aldriana admitted to being tired and having probably committed an oversight in his numbers, and since glyphs are hardcoded into the sheet, it's a reasonable question to ask - I find it unlikely that Aldriana would have had the Glyph of Eviscerate ready to go before bothering to check a double Instant Poison setup.

As you already stated yourself: There are no proper glyphs for that 3rd spot for Mutilate. But your best bet would be Glyph of Eviscerate for those mobs that are poison immune (yes, they do exist ). Although you could say that Glyph of Feint might also be useful now (but meh, haven't thought about dps in that aspect).

To clarify: yes, I was using the Eviscerate glyph. And to be clear: I don't think I "probably committed an oversight", I was just trying to warn people that these were early numbers so you shouldn't start quoting them as fact quite yet.

'Probably' was a poor choice of words there. Should've said 'Possibly' and if one was made, the glyph was as likely as any to be it. Glad it's taken into account.

For IP/IP what assumption are you making as far as the target being poisoned? If you are leeching from say a hunter's sting IP/IP/Evis may pull significantly ahead.

This'll be really, really interesting when it goes live. I really wish they didn't nerf Mutilate damage though, that's a shame. Could've done something else in PvP (Overkill/Vigor).

I wouldn't mind the huge nerf to Mutilate if they would at least give it a glyph, but i guess that would go against the action to nerf it in the first place.

Overall it's a buff to raiding mutilate. A nerf to pvp burst damage. Both things they'd said they'd address. But it does seem more bandaid and perhaps more is coming in 3.1.

But if HfB is being buffed to 15% now, doesn't that mean the proposed 3.1 change will actually be a slight nerf? After tonight HfB is a flat 15% damage buff. After 3.1 it'll be a 15% damage buff dependent on there being a bleed on the target.

The change was supposed to make it "more forgiving", since it'll be much simpler to reapply HFB. Alot of rogues were complaining about the difficulty of HFB and how much a dps loss it was if it dropped.

There will always be a bleed on the target during a 25man boss, unless you are unlikely running with no feral druids, warriors, other rogues, and perhaps some hunter pets (you may still apply your own bleeds).

I got one request. Aldriana can you please put in Envoy gun in the sheet?

Also, Murder on OH is actually better than Sinister Revenge on OH?

Is IP/DP still the way to go?

So with this drop in mutilate damage is it going to be better to go Dual IP and just evis? Deadly poison is losing it's worth slowly day in and day out it seems, specially if ur raiding with hunters and combat rogues.

If you would be as kind to read Aldrianas post a few posts earlier you would know the answer to that question...

so just out of curiosity I changed your agility gems to attack power (27 agi to 54 ap and 8 agi 8 crit to 16 ap 8 crit) to see what the DPS loss was and I saw that it was actually a .4 dps increase according to your sheet. Has this always been the case or did some of the 3.09 changes cause AP to pull slightly ahead?

AP have always been a very tiny bit more than AGI I think, but as Ald said somewhere "the single dodge you will get with the agi outscales every possible dps gain from the AP" :p

The value of Agi has dropped ever-so-slightly. Previously the EP value of Agility was 2.01; now it is 1.99. So yes, you may observe an ever-so-slight increase in DPS by switching to AP gems... although once you change the first few, Agi overtakes AP again - I find it optimal to replace, say, only the 3 Dragon's Eyes giving a DPS increase of .5. But: now you have in effect traded 1% dodge for a .01% DPS increase. I'd run the numbers on how frequently 1% dodge would have to save your life to be worth the loss of .01% DPS, but I think it suffices to say that it's a once in a damn long time. So for that reason alone, I believe it to be worth it.

Also, I might note, Agi is likely to scale better than AP as gear improves, so even aside from the immediate damage numbers, taking the option that leads to less regemming as one moves into Ulduar holds a certain appeal for me.

Well, you *shouldn't* need to dodge something ever. But in the real world, people pull aggro on a few whelps while AoEing, or edge too close to a cleave while dodging a Blizzard, or otherwise get into situations where dodge can save your life. It doesn't happen very often, mind you... but it doesn't need to. As a rough ballpark figure: on average dying cuts your total damage on the fight in half. Thus, to make your total damage the same across all fights, one would need to survive only one additional fight out of every 5000 in order to compensate for a .01% loss of DPS. Thus, if you wind up in a potentially fatal situation more than one every 50 fights - that is, once every 2-3 weeks of raiding - the dodge is worth it. Never mind that the death can lead to a wipe on progression content (or wreck your shot at an achivement, or whatever), whereas it's somewhat uncommon to wipe due to doing 100 less damage than the theoretical maximum.

In short: it is a tradeoff. You are giving up a very small amount of DPS for a very small amount of survivability. But it's a tradeoff I happen to think makes sense - not because you expect to get hit, but because, in practice, sometimes you get hit whether you want to or not.

Did you happen to try dual IP Eviscerate setup with Ruthlessness swapped out instead of Turn the Tables? In Vulajin's sheet modified for 3.0.9 this setup actually yields best results I've found so far, especially with a fast offhand. I'd be interested to know it performs in this sheet because giving up Ruthlessness obviously has a big impact on the cycle.

The sheet is not really well optimized for calculating non-ruthlessness cycles, but it appears that dropping Ruthlessness instead of Turn the Tables is ahead somewhat - probably on the order of 1%, perhaps a bit more.

What about Dual Murder vs Murder/SR for IP/IP.
Or would it be better to keep using IP/DP/Envenom for that?

Am I correct in assuming, from reading this thread, that an Evis IP/IP Mut setup, with proper glyphs and talents, is probably equal to the DPS of the "standard" Env IP/DP setups?

If so, is there any reason to favor one spec over the other? I'm guessing the Evis would be slightly better due to poison immunities or DP "inconsistencies"

I ran this spec yesterday in 25 man Naxx. We didn't have WWS running unfortunately, however I can confirm there was a large DPS increase on numerous fights throughout the run. There was a noticeable loss during the Thaddius fight, I was down almost 600dps, leading me believe that the IP/IP Evis. spec doesn't scale as well with damage increasing buffs. I shall be running the standard IP/DP Env. spec during our 10 mans. Out of curiosity, has anyone tried the Evis. spec with IP/DP and just letting DP stack? I don't understand the spreadsheet enough to try to do it myself, but it seems that it could be comparable since the DP stack would be (theoretically) up the whole duration of the fight.