Ah, I think I see it now. It's not ArPen that is the issue - it's expertise. With my current gear, I have 28 expertise, putting me above the cap. The calculated EP value for Expertise is shown as 1.84. Thus, the VanCleef's, with its 59 expertise, gets calculated as being an upgrade because of the EP. But when actually equipped, a full calculation is performed which ends up ignoring the surfeit of expertise. Now that I understand where the discrepancy is coming from, I can sort out my options.
First, big thanks to all those who contribute here.
I'm a little confused on the setting "Use Agi Value for ArPen?" Currently I have this set to no and I'm getting agility with the highest EP value. Why/When would I want to set this to yes, and if I do does that mean ArP is the preferred gem to optimize my dps?
I'm using combat1.3b4 with 3.22 ArP Conversion set to yes. I have several other pieces of ArP gear but the sheet is suggesting what I am using now.
So, let me start by asking a question. Assume for the moment that we're around the ArPen softcap - 735 ArPen or thereabouts. If I'm just below, the marginal value of ArPen is around 2.5 EP. If I'm just above, it's more like 1.7 EP. Which of these is more useful for assessing the quality of gear?
The answer, I submit, is neither. Consider the following thought experiment: If I'm near the ArPen softcap, and I pick up a new piece of gear which has more ArPen than what I'm currently using, what do I do? I redo my gemming to get back down around the ArPen softcap, replacing Fractured gems with Delicate ones. Conversely, if the new piece has *less* ArPen than what I'm using, I do the reverse - replacing agility gems with ArPen. Thus, after making such a gear change, I don't actually have any more or less ArPen than I did before. All a piece of gear with ArPen on it does is change the amount of ArPen I'm gemming versus the amount of agility. Hence, my overall ArPen total doesn't change (much) - what I'm really gaining (or losing) is agility.
Thus, the marginal value of a point of ArPen is neither the above-cap nor the sub-cap number - rather, it's the value of the agility we gain or lose by having that ArPen on gear rather than in gems. Thus, the marginal value of ArPen is exactly the same as that of agility, so the sensible way to assess gear in this situation is by setting the value of ArPen equal to the value of agility. I have provided an option that does this for you.
Note additionally that the same argument applies if you're optimizing around the hardcap, and the option can be used the same way in that event.
So: using this option presupposes that you're in a capped situation, and are thus gemming some mix of agility and/or ArPen to wind up there. The sheet, of course, is not smart enough to figure out the proper mix of gemming - it leaves that to you. The option exists solely to aid you in figuring out how good gear is in the abstract in these otherwise hard-to-assess gear situations.
Hey not sure if anyone has noticed this but I may have found a discrepancy in the spreadsheet or either I'm inputting some information in improperly but I believe I have everything correct.
If this has been mentioned and I haven't seen it, my apologies. With current gear and arp gems its showing myself having 668 passive arp(on the spreadsheet). In game tho I currently have 648 arp. Pretty sure you can click my name for an up to date armory listing of my current gear. If anyone could tell me if its most likely a error on my end would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.
Last edited by Hasted : 10/25/09 at 11:46 PM.
Reason: Typo
There are a few items with incorrect stats in the sheet, but I'm not aware of any such issues that would result in a discrepancy of 30 ArPen. However, all known bugs of this sort are posted in this thread, so if you look around you can see if any of the known issues may affect you.
Hey not sure if anyone has noticed this but I may have found a discrepancy in the spreadsheet or either I'm inputting some information in improperly but I believe I have everything correct.
If this has been mentioned and I haven't seen it, my apologies. With current gear and arp gems its showing myself having 668 passive arp(on the spreadsheet). In game tho I currently have 648 arp. Pretty sure you can click my name for an up to date armory listing of my current gear. If anyone could tell me if its most likely a error on my end would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.
20 ArP is exactly 1 gem. Are you sure you don't have an extra ArP gem socketed somewhere on the sheet?
Hey not sure if anyone has noticed this but I may have found a discrepancy in the spreadsheet or either I'm inputting some information in improperly but I believe I have everything correct.
If this has been mentioned and I haven't seen it, my apologies. With current gear and arp gems its showing myself having 668 passive arp(on the spreadsheet). In game tho I currently have 648 arp. Pretty sure you can click my name for an up to date armory listing of my current gear. If anyone could tell me if its most likely a error on my end would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.
20 ArPen is also the food buff being applied, instead of agi/ap/whatever. Might be where it's coming from?
Wait quick question, so 15/51/5 combat spec which has 3/3 in Improve Eviscerate, does that mean we just do not use rupture at all in the rotation?
That's correct. At sufficiently high armor pen levels, the DPS of using only Eviscerate in lieu of rupture (and glyphing and speccing accordingly) is at worst breakeven with speccing/gearing around the use of rupture, and has significant situational advantages. As gear improves beyond that breakpoint, going the Evisc only route pulls ahead in raw DPS as well.
I've noticed that dropping grim toll/mjollnir for another trinket (ie dark matter) does not decrease the value of ArP by a significant amount (or dps for that matter when soft capped), hence why not use a different trinket and keep gemming ArP until hard cap (even if it may not be reachable atm)?
So, it's true that dropping Mjolnir doesn't drop the value of ArPen *too* much, and would allow you to keep gemming ArPen past the softcap; however, it's also true that around the softcap, Mjolnir is quite a strong trinket relative to it's competitors.
So: for instance, in my gear, just below the softcap, ArPen has an EP value of 2.46; swapping in Dark Matter for Mjolnir drops that to 2.36, which, as you say, is a relatively minimal loss. And it would allow us to keep gemming ArPen (2.36) instead of Agility (2.12), so we gain about 5 EP per gem we swap out.
However: Dark Matter also scores about 130 EP below Mjolnir in that situation, so merely swapping out 4 or 5 gems isn't going to overcome what you lose by changing trinkets. Even accounting for ArPen increasing returns, you're looking at 15 or 20 gems to swap out before you break even.
Now, if you have enough gems to change out - and a better trinket - you can get to a situation where that makes sense. But how feasible, really, is that to do right now? I mean, I've heard some people express the sentiment that going for ArPen hardcap and two "real" trinkets is preferable to Mjolnir + Softcap, but... my question is, how is Mjolnir not a "real" trinket? I mean, it's ilvl 226. What other 226 or higher proc trinkets do we have as options? Off the top of my head:
...and, that's about it. And comparing Mjolnir to Dark Matter: we have a slightly weaker passive stat, and a proc consisting of more of a better stat. So it's not that hard to argue that Mjolnir is better itemized that Dark Matter - and as we just saw, swapping out Mjolnir for Dark Matter isn't likely to be an improvement. So there's really only 3 trinkets that might reasonably be argued to be "better" in the abstract - and you'd need 2 of the 3 to even think about dropping Mjolnir.
So, if you can get either double Verdict or Verdict/Trail, yes, there may be hardcap options for you. And, as I recall, theorycraft has shown that double Verdict setups do in fact edge softcap/Mjolnir setups. But given that you are now taking 2 of 3 best trinkets in the game, all of which are in significant demand as they are good for a number of different classes, in order to get a marginal DPS increase over a softcap/Mjolnir setup... one has to wonder if it's worth it.
Thus: the usual recommendation at the moment is Mjolnir + Verdict, as it's very nearly as good and much easier to get. But that's not to say that there aren't reasonable options that do otherwise - just that this is much easier to get, and really quite strong. Once we move into Icecrown and get access to more high-end trinket options, however, I rather imagine Mjolnir will quickly fall by the wayside, and we will indeed start pursuing the hardcap.
I'm one gear upgrade away (waiting for heroic silver assassin gloves to drop) from being able to run double verdict.
If I'm correct, then the Arpen value you need to hit to make double verdict ON PAR with mjolnir should be about 785.
In full BiS you're looking at 1010 Arpen with food buff.
Has anyone made a BiS list yet? I have one if anyone would like to see it in the gear thread. It's 9698(dwarf) with Ench/LW
If you're NE with BS/JC it's 9784.7 at 1112 arpen.
EDIT: Hold, on. Didn't account for agi gems. Working...
EDIT2: Alright, its a bit harder to hit. I just rebalanced and edited my way to find that you need exactly 877 arpen for double verdict to win...by 1.7dps. At 876 arpen, double verdict loses by 0.6 dps.
Sorry, I can't believe if forgot the gems...there we go. 877
When it comes to dropping Mjolnir and going for a dark matter i was wondering what thoughts are regarding more sustained dps with pursuing the soft cap on fights like Anub'arak, or really i guess any fight that might benefit from more sustained dps. Yes a Verdict/Mjolnir setup seems to be higher dps but 10 second proc on mjol seems to make the damage more random burst than more consistent reliable dps. Many encounters in toc require the ability to push out strong dps in timed situations.
To be clear, I never argued that double Verdict was unobtainable. Simply that, unless your guild has had much better luck with trinket drops that mine has, it's a bit... dickish. For lack of a better term.
Simply put: getting a 2nd Verdict is a marginal DPS increase. Letting someone else in your guild upgrade their Darkmoon Card (or whatever) is going to be a larger DPS increase. Thus, the *guild* is better off if you let someone else get a Verdict rather than taking two for yourself.
Again, I'm not arguing that double Verdict isn't good - as I recall, in full BIS gear it's a couple of tenths of a percent ahead of Verdict/Mjolnir. I merely suggest that that may be a couple tenths of a percent of optimization that, for most people, won't be worth getting. As always, though, your mileage may vary.
The point wasn't the gear surrounding double Verdict/Choice usage. The point was getting double Verdict itself. If you got it, you're either very lucky or very greedy and the second trinket would probably have a bigger raid DPS increase going to someone else.
As for proc vs usage: the counterargument is that on use has to be used on cooldown to gain the full benefit, thus your average is actually lower if you're saving it for burst periods.
Before you start to drift, and your soul begins to scream.
I just wanted to tell you, that you're listening to a dream.
Combat sheet 1.3 is finally done and linked in the first post. Not going to swear I haven't missed a few minor bugs yet, but it's stable enough that I don't feel it needs the beta descriptor anymore.
I'm curious, even though the sheet says otherwise, is it still agreed that agi/haste is more beneficial than agi/crit?
It varies heavily with gear. There are certain edge case advantages to haste for burst damage and cycle stability if the two stats are close enough to even, but in general, you should go with what the spreadsheet says for your specific gear and talent setup.
Unique gems are generally flagged as not recommendable, to avoid the situation where it starts recommending that you use an impossible number of them. You can certainly change this if you desire, but the theory for both Tears and Dragon's Eyes is that people are smart enough to know that they should use them, and would rather see the recommendation for the circumstance where they can't than be told what they already know.
10/23/09, 9:39 PM
