Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Rogues

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08/13/09, 5:02 PM   #1021
Kytrarewn
In 1st, e-brake activated.
 
Kytrarewn's Avatar
 
Kytrarewn
Undead Rogue
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by galifor View Post
So I'm sorry if this is a stupid question. I tried looking through the posts and couldn't find a definitive answer. Once you reach the Poison Hit Cap (315) and the Expertise Cap at which point is it better to start stacking ArPen gems vs. Agi gems?

Using Aldriana's spreadsheet it shows that Agi is the way to go but I see all the top rogues stacking ArPen...what gives?

I'm currently 4/5 T8 and have rest uld10/25 gear.
The value of Armor Penetration goes up with the amount of Armor Penetration you already have, including that from trinket procs.

Since you have neither Mjolnir's Runestone nor Grim Toll, agility is probably better for you.

They're pretty close up to huge values of armor penetration, anyway. I offspec mutilate, as you do, and so generally gem for agility as it is far better for Mutilate on bosses that are Murder-able and most of my gear does double-duty.

Also, the poison cap is 237 with Misery/iFF and full Precision, not 315. Unless you tend to only raid 10-mans, you'll more likely than not have one or the other, so I wouldn't stress out about keeping your hit much above 237, though it's still useful for increased combat potency procs.

Don't let this asshole be a US Senator: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jkU3...layer_embedded

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.

United States Online
Old 08/13/09, 6:12 PM   #1022
Minka
Banned
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Aegwynn (EU)
After some testing with Spreadsheets, it says that Mutilate is ahed combat. So I'm asking me why, what has changed in 3.2 to mutilate? Or calculating failures? The only change to Mutilate I knew was somethign with Basedmg from Envenom (which is not stated in Patch Notes, so maybe it's not done). I tried much and looked to many logs from many guilds.

So can I trust the calculations?

Combat has nice utility because of the CDs (AR, BF and KS) you can "abuse" them to do much dmg. Mutilate has no really cds which can be "abused" you can use Vanish to get more energy and CB for one crit envenom / crit FOK. Single target dps from Mut is high when the target is affected from Murder (sadly this is not every boss) and thats it.

Offline
Old 08/13/09, 6:26 PM   #1023
MrGreen88
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Xavius (EU)
Originally Posted by Minka View Post
After some testing with Spreadsheets, it says that Mutilate is ahed combat. So I'm asking me why, what has changed in 3.2 to mutilate? Or calculating failures? The only change to Mutilate I knew was somethign with Basedmg from Envenom (which is not stated in Patch Notes, so maybe it's not done). I tried much and looked to many logs from many guilds.

So can I trust the calculations?

Combat has nice utility because of the CDs (AR, BF and KS) you can "abuse" them to do much dmg. Mutilate has no really cds which can be "abused" you can use Vanish to get more energy and CB for one crit envenom / crit FOK. Single target dps from Mut is high when the target is affected from Murder (sadly this is not every boss) and thats it.
Could you please share your gear/gem/spem setup for these result?
Previously stated, combat pulled ahead by quite a margin. Have you found something others missed?

Offline
Old 08/13/09, 8:39 PM   #1024
Zapporius
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Vek'nilash (EU)
The reason I prefer combat is not only trash, but the ability to pop cooldowns at will, like when doing Deconstructor at hard mode to nuke the heart. Spreadsheet may be right about average dps and mutilate being ahead on murderable bosses, but I'd still find combat slightly more useful for timing cooldowns with bloodlust etc.

Offline
Old 08/14/09, 12:42 AM   #1025
Minka
Banned
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Aegwynn (EU)
Mutilate Gear Setup: The World of Warcraft Armory
Combat Setup is the Same, just to items switching. MH: [Golden Saronite Dragon] and Bracers: [Armbands of the Wary Lookout]

Offline
Old 08/14/09, 1:26 AM   #1026
Grunge
Don Flamenco
 
Grunge's Avatar
 
Human Rogue
 
Kor'gall (EU)
Not to be the devils advocate here, but "HaT Killed the Mutilate Star."

In all seriousness, I think Mutilate sheet hasn't been updated for quite some time, and it might give some erroneous information.

However, about the comparison, did you remember to change gemming to ArP?

Although singletarget, in ulduar BiS, Mutilate still beats Combat, while in AC BiS, it lags heavily behind due to heavy ArP on AC gear.

Not to mention, HaT is still to Mutilate, so I don't see a reason why to go into AC as mutilate (unless you enjoy the playstyle enough to make sacrifices in your dps).

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

Offline
Old 08/14/09, 2:36 AM   #1027
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Just a quick comment here.

It's true that the Mutilate sheet hasn't been updated in a while, but then, nothing has really changed with the spec in that time; plus, the Mutilate modeling was always better than the modeling for the Combat sheet. Hence, assuming you've input all gear correctly, the answers you get should be largely correct, modulo one bug that's been reported.

That said: it's worth noting that the default assumption of the Mut sheet - that you get all set bonuses - is no longer particularly valid. So that needs to be kept in mind in terms of getting answers out of it.

That one bug, for the record, is that Rupture damage boosts are additive rather than multiplicative.

Regardless - I have no major plans to maintain the Mutilate sheet at this point - the modeling doesn't really need any changes, and the spec strikes me as inferior in most cases, so I'm just not willing to devote much time to it. However, given that the changes that need to be made to update it are largely straightforward, I suspect people's various third-party updates will be adequate for the moment.

On a vaguely related note: the new official version of the combat sheet has been uploaded. Please see notes in first post regarding behavior around the ArPen cap(s).

Offline
Old 08/14/09, 3:55 AM   #1028
Valustria
Banned
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
On a vaguely related note: the new official version of the combat sheet has been uploaded. Please see notes in first post regarding behavior around the ArPen cap(s).
I'm sure plenty of people want to thank you for this -- I'll get it out of the way for everyone: Muchas gracias, Aldriana! = )

Now, onto more useful comments: I noticed this updated version lacked [Favor of the Dragon Queen], which is still a better necklace (for some rogues) than the [Broach of the Wailing Night] due to the gem socket. If you are not Aldriana and you have this necklace, you might consider inserting a line above the Broach and adding it manually to your spreadsheet. A simple search on these forums should reveal how that is done. If you are Aldriana, while this information probably has no benefit to you personally, if you have a list of minor updates, perhaps consider adding this piece of gear back to the sheet for others?

Offline
Old 08/14/09, 4:08 AM   #1029
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
I made some effort to prune gear of little utility, partly for reasons of usability, and partly because the sheet does actually break in at least some versions of OpenOffice if the gear list gets too long. If I was overaggressive on some slots, I apologize, and feel free to request that some items be re-added; however, unless they're at least comparable to items in the sheet that are fairly universally accessible at this stage, I may decline to do so.

With regards to Favor of the Dragon Queen in particular: I actually thought I'd left it in - must've grabbed one more row than I meant to when deleting necks. When/if I get around to doing the next update, I'll probably add it back in - unless, of course, it's fully obsoleted by then (and given that I make no promises about the timing of the next release, that provision may or may not be relevant).

Offline
Old 08/14/09, 4:42 AM   #1030
Valustria
Banned
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
I just added it into mine, and I use OpenOffice; I haven't noticed any problems so far. Also, I went through and did a bunch of Find & Replace edits to switch all the Alliance versions of gear over to their Horde counterparts. If you want, I could e-mail you my version to host alongside yours for all the Horde players who don't feel like having to go through that trouble themselves.

EDIT: Also, just noticed that all of the Valorous Bonescythe pieces are not available. I definitely think Heroes' Bonescythe is unnecessary, but given the number of questions we get here about when to make the jump from T7 to T8, I think it's worth having all the pieces of Valorous Bonescythe in the spreadsheet... just so when we refer people to the spreadsheet, they can't come back and say, "I did, it's not there!" = P

Last edited by Valustria : 08/14/09 at 4:51 AM.

Offline
Old 08/14/09, 4:52 AM   #1031
Drizzuhl
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Alleria (EU)
Maybe i am a little bit late for the discussion, but while playing with the sheet, the problem with the excellent 4/4 T8 bonus comes more aware(I think Aldirana stated, this when it was first discovered). I hardly find a combination of gear, where breaking 4/4 T8.25 before having 4/4 T9 (245) is better.
Thanks for the new version.

Offline
Old 08/14/09, 4:56 AM   #1032
saytr79
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Andorhal
Originally Posted by Auturgist View Post
I just added it into mine, and I use OpenOffice; I haven't noticed any problems so far. Also, I went through and did a bunch of Find & Replace edits to switch all the Alliance versions of gear over to their Horde counterparts. If you want, I could e-mail you my version to host alongside yours for all the Horde players who don't feel like having to go through that trouble themselves.

EDIT: Also, just noticed that all of the Valorous Bonescythe pieces are not available. I definitely think Heroes' Bonescythe is unnecessary, but given the number of questions we get here about when to make the jump from T7 to T8, I think it's worth having all the pieces of Valorous Bonescythe in the spreadsheet... just so when we refer people to the spreadsheet, they can't come back and say, "I did, it's not there!" = P
What would the rank be for Favor of the Dragon Queen when readding to the new spreadsheet ? I assume the base score is the same as the previous ... please correct me if i am wrong.

Offline
Old 08/14/09, 5:14 AM   #1033
Valustria
Banned
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by saytr79 View Post
What would the rank be for Favor of the Dragon Queen when readding to the new spreadsheet ? I assume the base score is the same as the previous ... please correct me if i am wrong.
Ummmmm... I dunno how to answer that question. The base score isn't something you put in, it's something the spreadsheet calculates. If you insert a new row, make sure you copy the formulas from another necklace in the sheet, and just change the stats for it manually.

But for me, the Favor of the Dragon Queen is closer to the Seed of Budding Carnage than it is to the Broach of the Wailing Night. Your mileage may vary based on the gear you are using.

Offline
Old 08/14/09, 5:29 AM   #1034
Valustria
Banned
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Auturgist View Post
EDIT: Also, just noticed that all of the Valorous Bonescythe pieces are not available. I definitely think Heroes' Bonescythe is unnecessary, but given the number of questions we get here about when to make the jump from T7 to T8, I think it's worth having all the pieces of Valorous Bonescythe in the spreadsheet... just so when we refer people to the spreadsheet, they can't come back and say, "I did, it's not there!" = P
Ugh, trying to add the other T7 pieces breaks the Meta socket for some reason. Dunno why that is -- seems to be happening when I get down to the gloves. = /

EDIT: Fuck it. I'm not wasting time trying to get T7 pieces onto this thing. Someone can update the Pocket Guide with the info that it's not worth breaking 4pT7 until you have 4pT8 if it's not already there... I've added Favor of the Dragon Queen, done the Find/Replace for Horde versions of all the gear, and made some cosmetic changes mostly for myself. I'm willing to share this version with anyone who wants it, but let me either send it to Aldriana to host alongside the original version, or upload it myself to some free host. Please don't ask me to e-mail it to you personally.

Last edited by Valustria : 08/14/09 at 5:42 AM.

Offline
Old 08/14/09, 6:24 AM   #1035
trrdr
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Hunter
 
Kargath (EU)
I've changed all item names to the Horde versions (and added Favor of the Dragon Queen) for myself and thought there might be someone out there interested in it. Although I like the idea of different models for Horde and Alliance, the different names are somewhat annoying, even if the only real variations are with weapons. It'll be interesting to see if they keep it up for IC.

Combat_1.2_horde.xls

Edit: I just realized that you have four active Glyphs, Aldriana - just in case you hadn't noticed already.
Edit2: And just now I saw your edit, Auturgist. Yay me doing redundant work.

Last edited by trrdr : 08/14/09 at 6:48 AM. Reason: Spelling sucks.

Offline
Closed Thread

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Rogues

Thread Tools