I found this to be my issue, thanks for mentioning the evis. cycle it sent me in the right direction looking for more information.
Using the two T9 pieces I mentioned gemmed optimaly, I showed a loss from 7604 to 7475 DPS. Just switched to this sheet and left the talents set on the default.:P

I would like to know at about which level of gear mongoose becomes better than berserking because using the spreadsheet I noticed that it suggests to switch to mongoose but when I do my dps istead of growing just drop of about 1-2 dps and it suggests me again to switch to berserking.

I tried working a bit with the spreadsheet but the only thing usefull I understood was that expertise becomes valuable for combat (and it suggests me to socket exp) but i don't understand the logic behind mongoose.

Ofc we are talking about a double wound poison setup.

It does the same thing for me: when I switch one weapon to Mongoose, it recommends Berserking... when I switch to Berserking, it recommends Mongoose. It did this once before with Berserking and Accuracy. I think at such breaking points it simply becomes a matter of preference. Berserking has the benefit of additional damage via poisons from Fan of Knives due to the raw AP buff, while Mongoose has no armor penalty and can help to apply more poisons single-target. Personally, I prefer Mongoose, but I've seen rogues with better gear than me going both ways with their weapon enchants.

The enchants swapping around happens because it makes the recommendation based on how much better each one would be, while you still have the other one selected. If you could select no enchant for a weapon, then it would accurately recommend the "better" enchant. Currently the best way to see which is ideally better is to select each one, and see which has a better overall dps.

The reason they swap around is as you have more AP (say from zerking) the EP of agi and haste of mongoose go up, alternatively when you have more haste/crit (from the agi of mongoose) the value of AP goes up in comparison. If you are at the point swapping the enchant changes the recommendation, the difference must be pretty small, so if you value the added survivability of mongoose its probably the way to go.

That is how I understand it anyway.

Is there a way to imput the crit gained from skinning into the spreadsheet?


Also in a question on spec. All builds except mace/dagger put a point in endurance, instead of unfair advantage. While the number of things to use an aoe that can be dodged to proc unfair advantage is minute (the trash in voa comes to mind), wouldnt this actually be best for dps? At the expense of around 275 hp of course.

Imitate 40 crit by creating two BS sockets in bracers/gloves and fitting two +20 Crit (Smooth King's Amber) gems into those sockets.

I'm wondering if anyone else has come to this point, or if I'm seeing something strange.

My main spec is the common 51/13/7 mutilate build. I'm switching between this and ruptureless combat with a mace/dagger. I switch from the tier helm to hood of lethal intent and my 232 mace has a 20 ar.pen gem in it. It's saying this is all I need for ar.pen. Is the sheet taking into account the 15% from maces, or is there that much passive ar.pen on the 245 gear? I also use Mjolnir Runestone in both sets for lack of a better mutilate-oriented trinket.

Both specs yield about the same dps for me, but some fights in TOC really favor the cooldowns a combat spec offers.

You can see both of my armor sets on wow-heroes.com or I can upload both spreadsheets if needed.

Edit: It is taking maces into account, and working correctly. If I change to the Bloodfang Hood it suggests replacing the ar.pen gem with agility.

Is there an updated Mutilate spreadsheet available since the Mutilate_1.1 sheet? I might have overlooked it searching through the forums.

i am using the beta 4 spreadsheet and trust the outcomes of the sheet normally but now i ran into something i cannot explain myself:

Generally said, the spreadsheet recommends to gem for ArPen and use a ruptureless-cyrcle. I have 791 ArPen from gear and gems and 327 hit rating.

i use Bloodfang Mask at the moment but have now the emblems to buy myself Hood of Lethal Intent.

That means that i gain 8 agi, 62 stam and 82 hit rating. I loose 2 AP, 58 crit and 2 Arpen without the gem and socket bonus. The socket bonus would mean a swap from 8 Arpen (EP value 2.1078) to 8 Agi (EP value 2.0834).

And now where it gets strange for me: The spreadsheet tells me that the swap would gain me 123.07 dps.

Could somebody please explain me why its such a big improvment?


edit for typo

I would highly recommend downloading the latest (non-beta) version of the spreadsheet and see if that fixes anything.

Bloodfang Mask had it's stats buffed either just before or just after the patch was released and the beta sheet may have the wrong stats.

Thanks for all the response,

i checked the gear info in the spreadsheet and Rahdik was right. The information is wrong there. I checked if the hood is right there but for some strange reason, i didn't check for the mask before.

I corrected them and now the spreadsheet shows a reasonable dps-improvment of 19.99 if i take the hood.


Thanks again all for the help.

Ok, this has been bugging me for a while now, so as a last resort I guess I'm asking for someone with a bit of free time to check my sheets and spot what I'm missing. My current gearset is with 2PT9 and can be found on this sheet: Current. After picking up two more trophies to make my 4P bonus (and swapping boots, as I will explain) my sheet looks like this: New.

First thing to note is that swapping chests (Vest of Shifting Shadows (Heroic) for Garona's Breasplate of Triumph) trades an allotment of 67 arp for 82 hit (over poison cap atm) but trading helms (Mask of Lethal Intent for Garona's Helmet of Triumph) trades 82 hit for 74 expertise (at exp cap). So right off the bat the net effect is trading an arp allotment for an entirely useless expertise allotment, this in itself should be a dps loss. To offset this I swapped my current boots: Acidmaw Treads (Heroic) for a set without an expertise allotment: Icewalker Treads. Note that this swap traded 51 expertise for 59 arp. So the net effect of swapping to 4PT9 from 2PT9 and swapping boots to avoid being largely over the expertise cap is approximately 8 arp for 15 expertise. Now this is slightly misleading because 10-man HM gear tends to have an extra socket as it's reward, and other stats are off by a couple points here and there, but the global effect is a small bit of arp for some expertise (which is entirely wasted). My problem then is thus: the sheet representing my current setup is about 35dps ahead of the setup that swaps to 4PT9. So for sake of simplicity, lets just say I'm losing 8 arp in the end, I don't think it takes a genius to realize that 5% crit on sinister strike is worth far more than 8 arp rating.

To help you find my error, here are some things to consider: buffs should be identical, the "New" sheet was a copy of the current. Specs should be identical (and shouldn't change, because weapons aren't changing). As I pointed out, 10-man HM gear tends to be better than 25-man normal gear by a socket, so there could be a built in difference of two sockets that the current setup is "ahead" by, via virtue of 10-man HM gear being better than 25-man normal mode gear, but that's at the very most, and again, isn't worth the 110+ EP points that the 4P bonus is worth. The "current" sheet is sitting at 735 passive arp and the "new" sheet was slightly regemmed to bring it to 733 passive arp, so it's not a matter of forgetting to get back to the softcap. The two new tier pieces do have inferior socket colors, which does slightly matter, but again, that shouldn't trump the value of the 4P bonus. The "new" gear does however have a better blue socket bonus (by 2 agility) so that's a small factor in it's favor.

Those were essentially all the things that came to my mind to try and figure this out. I can see them being close, that makes total sense. Picking up a few points by virtue of 10-man HM gear being better and swapping a small handful of arp points for (entirely wasted) expertise is definitely worth something, but my gut tells me the bonus is worth more than that, and shouldn't be losing at all, especially by 35 dps. I appreciate any help anyone has to offer here. I've been over and over this and I can't figure it out. I even redownladed the current sheet and filled it in from scratch to rule out any settings bugs that may have gotten saved. Again, if you have the time to help me with this, you have my thanks.

Unhiding the Calcs sheet lets you see the stats :

Stat	Old	New	Diff
Str	20	20	0
Agi	1548	1454	-94
AP	2026	2021	-5
Crit	567	598	31
Hit	326	324	-2
Exp	138	161	23
Haste	241	241	0
ArPen	735	733	-2

So you're essentially trading 94 Agi for 31 Crit and 23 Expertise.
Note that you're already expertise capped in your old gear (10 through talents + 16.83 through gear), so all the Expertise you gain is utterly wasted (10+19.64).

AEP wise, you're looking at ~169 gained vs ~209 lost (already including the 4T9 bonus).

Didn't even know those were there, would have saved me a lot of hand calcs trying to do essentially the same thing. I guess that does explain it, though certainly not what I expected. I guess they were just a little too favorable itemizing 10-man HM loot. I could swap my throwing for a hit one and drop some exp but that would probably just bring me closer to even instead of a net gain. Thank you very much for your time.

The latest available version of the mutilate spreadsheet is the Mutilate_1.1_(beta_2). For future reference, if you go to rogue forum's front page, you can click on the red attatchments icons immediately to the left of the last post field of a given thread to recieve a pop-up box displaying the documents attached to that particular thread. That way you don't have to search through a 71 page thread for a beta update that may or may not be there.

I don't know that post you are specifically referring to, but the ruptureless cycles are either concern mutilate builds or the new item tier for combat builds (ilvl 264). I have not tested for but maybe ruptureless cycles are viable for ilvl 258 best in slot items too. For the current combat builds however (with ilvl 245 items), rupture is still included in the cycles.

A bit after L245 you are ready to switch to ruptureless as combat, even tho it is 20-30dps less theoretical. Ruptureless gives you more burst and way better on trash and boss fights with adds.

I have the same. The switch to ruptureless is highly dependent on having Mjolnir, as far as I can tell. I have Grim Toll, and have yet to be able to force the sheet to suggest a ruptureless cycle. Change the GT to MR, though, and it will.

I do not believe your assessment is accurate. There have certainly been posts here about ruptureless combat builds that predate any IC discussion. If I had a MR, I would be able to run one now, according to the combat sheet.

I obviously can't comment on whether your spreadsheet settings are correct, but there are some general principles that would go some way to explain the conditions you describe. According to your amory profile, your ArP rating is 310 and, as such, quite a bit short of the ArP soft cap. This could explain why the spreadsheet doesn't recommend a ruptureless cycle. To this end, I've had the spreadsheet recommend a ruptureless cycle at lower gear levels than yours, but with a higher passive ArP and specced into Mace Specialization.

As far as Agi and 18/51/2 appearing stronger than ArP and 15/51/5 respectively, it could be explained by the fact that you're specced into Hack and Slash which, compared to other combat specs, yields more poison procs and relies more heavily on white and poison damage.

Thank you for the spreadsheet.
I'm running a combat specc and using a ruptureless rotation with GT and about 650 passive armorpen.
When I switch my greatness to a Comet's trail the spreadsheet suggest that I should use wound poison as my offhand poison. I accept it, I just don't know why. I would be really thankful if someone could explain it to me.
If you need more information just ask.

Simply put; haste increases the number of swings, which increases number of poison procs which increases the DPS of wound, but *not* of Deadly (since more applications don't result in more damage, once you already have your stack).