It's the haste proc on Comet's Trail. While haste results in more procs for both WP and DP, all DP procs on a full DP stack (barring one every 12 seconds to refresh the stack) are a waste on live. WP does not have that issue, hence benefits way more from the haste proc.

Note that on the 3.3 PTR DP procs on a full DP stack will cause the poison on your other weapon to proc as well. If this change goes live then you obviously should use a combination of WP and DP again.

As for the arm pen discussion and eviscerate only, my gear is almost all 245 and I gemmed everything out for arm pen. Farming for Mjolnir but no luck yet, so I'm sitting at 827 passive arm pen. the spreadsheet only showed a dps drop of around 50 using the evis only spec/cycle so I've been raiding with that. Unfortunately I've noticed a bit larger drop. I was consistently top dps but have since been passed by a DK. I figured with the simpler rotation and burst I would actually come out ahead over a more complex rupture cycle. Sadly this is not the case and I will be reverting back to a rupture spec. The spreadsheet still shows arm pen ahead of agil so at least I won't have to regem everything.

Maybe the DK changes something in his gear, spec or rotation too? Just saying that checking dps in raids is very tricky as a lot of factors that can change from fight to fight have to remain the same to do a proper comparison. That said, when you change back to rupture rotation, record one of your straight dps fights, such as first phase of Northern Beasts and compare the uptime of rupture to what comes out of the spreadsheet. It could be that what you are doing in reality is different from the strategy considered optimal in the spreadsheet.

I'm with you on the danger of using a comparison to another raid member as a measure of how well a spec change is performing, but I don't quite understand why you suggest measuring rupture uptime. If he is doing something sub-optimal with his rupture rotation, that would decrease the dps drop he would see when switching to a ruptureless cycle, right? But he is in fact seeing (or believes he is seeing) a larger than predicted dps drop instead?

I can't find the 1.4 version of the combat sheet in this thread anymore. Has it been removed? If so, how come?

What 1.4 version? The latest release is 1.3. I have not released a 1.4.

You might be thinking of the latest beta version of the combat spreadsheet which was named Combat_1.3_(beta_4), if I recall correctly. Not too long ago it was deemed fit for a beta to alpha upgrade and thus, in accordance with previous versions of the spreadsheet, simply named Combat_1.3, which is the latest available version of the combat spreadsheet.

You did change your spec and glyphs I assume?

I have a question regarding this spreadsheet and the white hit cap. I am trying to calculate the maximum possible crit chance that my white hits have, like with DMC + 2 Mongoose procs. I noticed that changing "Mongoose" to "Berserking" lowered my "MH Base Crit Rate" on the spreadsheet by less than 1 percent, whereas 120 Agi gives roughly 1.5% crit. So my question is, exactly what is "MH base crit rate," does it relate to the white crit cap, and if so, how?

Keep in mind that procs are averaged.

To clarify: keep in mind that *some* procs are averaged. Not all of them are, but Mongoose is. Basically, the crit capping logic was based on the assumption that one would never get into crit cap trouble except via Dark Matter, which is sadly no longer true; I will probably need to update that logic again (sigh) for 3.3, given that crit capping through agi procs - or even passively - is now becoming feasible. So: baseline crit rate is your actual effective crit rate against boss level mobs, with a time-averaged portion of the Mongoose crit; long-cooldown procs (Dark Matter, Darkmoon Card, Death's Verdict, etc.) are not included. At some point this may change, but for the moment, this is how it works.

That's not what he's saying. Basically, IF you have Comet's Trail equipped, then you should probably switch to double wp, because that will yield more dps.
That isn't the same thing, as CT is better than DV

Irt (rupture vs. Eviscerate) spec dps loss, I as well notice a "drop" in dps. Seems a high rupture cycle will yield more dps on sheet and on cirtin fights. Over all it's about ease of cycle. Rupture obviously requires more maintinace. In fights like in heroic versions of TOC raids requiring switching (portals/ twin shield), I prefer the eviscerate only spec for the ease of heavy crits to "burn" npc's quickly. Then being a relitive new player I would listen to others advice and experiment on your own

Hi,
I've been following the discussion on the DP changes quite a while and must admit my curiosity's peaked more than just a bit.

But first things first:
As has already been mentioned armor penetration (, presumably combat's best stat,) delivers great, steady DPS. That is at least on paper. Personal experience - going with a mjolnir softcap setup until recently - showed agility to be a better "companion". Hereby I do not refer to the extra evasion one gains by socketing agility. The DPS provided by the agility instead of armpen setup stood at least equal or topped the prior setup (+/-0 to +100 dps).
I'm not talking sheet values here, but raid experience and hours of puppet smashing (1.2 million damage or 5 mins whichever was reached first; doing 20 of those per session) - hooray for Ironforge.
Prior to the armpen nerf this used to be different. One could net a fair amount (again about 100 dps) from taking armpen in most slots.

Whereas it is quite obvious, that agility or crit become far more viable stats the more often a fight involves movement and regenerative phases, it still surprised me, that the loss on armpen was so drastic. On the other hand combat's a lot more about burst than mutilate and as stated burst is helped by agility, not so much by armpen.

Again, with hardcap setups on the horizon, this may change once more turning armpen into the stronger stat (again) but were it today I'd doubt armpen's number one position.

The further one gets to look down the road, the more it seems to be IP/DP 20/51 and optimizing the number of IP procs.

This again increases overall strength of hit rating, agility, ap and haste - not so much of armpen.

At the current state of equipment (that is: now and shortly after ICC's release) even a combat rogue would be better advised to go for non-armpen imbued gear, socket agility or haste (my stomach tells me haste - especially as that doesn't collide with the crit cap, but gotta test that one) and poison as much of the enemy as one possibly can.
As a direct consequence of this action physical damage will fall rapidly towards 40 (maybe even 35) %.
Also this development reduces the value of eviscerate and lends (at least while 2 T9 are an option) bleed a hand. Murder spree will profit from rupture and reduced swing timers a bit as well; it's 20% damage buff - that is, as well as 2.5 extra instant poison procs.

Up until ... the hardcap is in range - then again one might have to reconsider - but not because armpen turns out to be the stronger stat, but rather because there simply is no way to aquire a non-armpen set of equal level. One could of course lament about how that will not be possible due to the projected itemization, but neither that nor how long this process may take are what I'm interested in.

So, what I am really curious about is:
How would a haste (secondary concern agi) heavy T9 (itlevel 258) equipped 20/51 combat specced fare compared to the armpen version INCLUDING the upcoming DP change on the sheets?
Will it be poison rupture vs. mutilate - and if it is - would poison rupture even come close to mutilates numbers?

Thanks for any help on this (, eg. is there any easy way to include the DP proc mechanism into the present Aldriana Combat Sheet?).

I would like someone to help me with why Blood Fury axe (Horde version) is not in spreadsheet 1.3? Since I didn't changed any options except my gear, when I replace my fist weapon and dagger, with axes that are in there (Stormpike Cleaver & Lion's Maw) my dps drops. Why is that ? Thanks

Did you change the talents as well (CQC to HnS)?
Also note that [Stormpike Cleaver] and [The Lion's Maw] are both main hand weapons (at least in the sheet), so you cannot even choose them for the off hand. The correct alliance counterpart to [Blood Fury] would be [Lionhead Slasher].

This is what the sheet should look like, pink arrows pointing at the settings you'd want to change. Consider downloading a fresh copy if yours looks completely different.

Aldriana,

First of all, many have said this but thank you for your hard work in developing these spreadsheets and for putting in a steady and dedicated effort to help us all stay on track.

I cannot read every post every day, but do try to stay current with what is being discussed. My assumption here is that many people are spending a significantly more amount of time theorycrafting about the combat spec, than assassination builds.

However, my question for this thread is regarding Wrathstone. I find this trinket (since I do not have Algalon trinkets) useful for ToGC 25 because of the "on use" nature of the trinket, so I have been using it over Blood of the Old God/Grim Toll (my other reasonably viable trinkets), together with Death's Choice (245) for my current Assassination build. It has obvious uses for example with bosses such as Heroic Twins/Jaraxxus.

So, two things here.

1. I'd like to hear what people think about the importance of a trinket like this compared with "chance to proc" trinkets in heroic difficulties for burst damage. My thought here is that this is a more important trinket to the success of the encounter (i.e. more important than whether or not your overall DPS is a bit higher with a "chance to proc" trinket).

2. In the spreadsheet, Blood of the Old God seems to show a DPS increase (about 35dps) over Wrathstone with my gear setup. Last night I tested interchanging the two trinkets and found that my DPS was significantly lower (i.e. a couple hundred DPS) when I used Blood of the Old God. My guess here is that its hard to model trinkets that work differently to assess their true value in a given boss encounter. For example, when modeling Wrathstone, did you assume that it was used on cooldown? Does it work differently in how you've incorporated it into the spreadsheet?

My other thought here is that since the AP on use effect is notably lower than other trinkets that it might be valued lower as a result. In practise, I have found my DPS is best with this trinket equipped and used appropriately.

Thoughts?

I'm sure this issue with trinkets has been addressed before in this thread, maybe take some time to look back at past posts. I know now with 72 pages long it may be hard to find but there is also a great resource of information as well that addresses many topics. Being new still i tend to research before I post here in an attempt to keep this mechanics thread progressing in the direction intended. I can not speak accurately to how the spreadsheet calculates trinkets of various kinds/types. I will leave that to our moderator and/or to your efforts of research.

I can speak to my experience, which is still limited. I prefer being able to control my as many "procs" as possible but of course having optimal gear in slot doesn't always mean the highest gear level, and doesn't always mean, in this case trinkets, that you have that option. I would continue testing in raid and dummy to see what is working and what doesn't. My first place to start would be to use the gear that puts your stats closest to the "caps", which for me usually will yield best results. To further use my opinion, I also adjust my game play for specific fights, you look at my gear currently i have two trinkets that have "equip" proc's, so in fights like jaxx h 10m/25m (being combat spec), i burn my other cool downs, like blade fury and adrenaline rush, on things such as portals since those are the only ones i can control. This makes sure my dps is boosted where i really need it on an encounter specifically. If you have the option to burn your trinkets on demand use your fight timers. Referring the to Jaxx fight on heroic mode again, a two minute cool down is about right for portals, burn them about five seconds before the portal spawns each time and you should be successful each time.

Of course like you I do like to check on previous discussion first, so I searched for any mention of the word "Wrathstone" (one of the few things I can do without having to read all 72 pages again) and only found off-topic mentions twice of that trinket.

I realize that the vast majority of rogues these days are combat, I have been too for most of WotLK and as such, cooldowns like BF, AR and where appropriate, KS, give combat an edge in some fights with regards to potential burst DPS.

My point here is not "how much burst dps can we do", or "combat does more burst dps than mute etc..." it is "when you're in a fight that requires short bursts of high dps, should we be placing a higher value on Wrathstone than what we have on the spreadsheet?"

In my view, its very under-valued at the moment likely because of the way the stats/proc etc... compare in Aldriana's calcuation in the spreadsheets. In ToC, almost every fight has at least one part in which short, high burst DPS is needed. "Chance to proc" trinkets are obviously not as optimal in those situations.

I have done some relatively thorough tests on the target dummies using (Mutilation spec) Deaths Choice with a) Wrathstone, b) Blood of the Old God and c) Grim Toll over 5 minutes each and found that Wrathstone yeilded the highest DPS over the others. I have found similar results in boss encounters as I will sometimes interchange trinkets to test the waters in action.

Check out the last post from 11/26 on this page. It may answer your question some about procs with trinkets referring to the sheet it self. I take all testing in game as my final verdict as to how i equip/gem. I would say mostly i do follow the sheet, but i usually find some tweaking to suit my preferences. I am also new too so i really only understand combat spec mechanics.

I think the way I want to answer this is to talk a little bit about what the sheet does and how to use it. As a novice user, it's easy enough to just pull up the sheet, see what gives the biggest number, and go with that; and, frankly, for a novice user, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, there's a pretty big difference between that and how a more sophisticated user can use the sheet, and it's certainly very different than how *I* use the sheet. So let's take a moment to discuss some things you may want to think about while using the sheet.

The fundamental thing to keep in mind is that the sheet is not - and has never claimed to be - a model of real fights. It's assessing your steady-state, single-target DPS. So on a fight where you can just sit there and spam perfect cycles all fight without any other concerns, it's a pretty good model. The problem is that in recorded history, there's been maybe two fights where that's at all a decent assumption: original Patchwerk (3.0 version dies too fast) and Brutallus. It's not a *bad* assumption on a fight like XT hard, but there's still the considerations of the heart phase burn, running out for gravity bombs, cleaving adds, and so on. So even in that fight - which is otherwise just a tank-and-spank fight - there are other things going on to keep in mind.

So, does this mean the sheet is useless? Not at all, it just means that you need to keep in mind what differences the fights have from this abstract reality, and adjust accordingly. Sometimes it's not a big deal - for instance, the stat weightings don't change much just because a fight is shorter (within reason). But in terms of trinket procs and cooldowns and whatnot, the point of having a sheet like this is that you can assess how much damage you'd lose by making a particular decision, and thus weigh whether it's worth it or not.

So, for instance, in this case: you have BotOG, and Wrathstone; the sheet is telling you that they are 35 DPS different, assuming Wrathstone is used on cooldown. Is it worth losing 35 DPS in exchange for being able to control when the burst comes, at the expense of having to remember to use it on cooldown rather than letting it take care of itself? Totally up to you. And the answer, I submit, depends a lot on the particulars of a given fight

Similarly, when assessing which race is the best - there are some very standard answers to this, which may or may not have any bearing on the practical realities - for instance, the Troll racial is considered to be very strong in general, but it's pretty clearly weaker than both Orc and Blood Elf on Anub'arak.

One of the major questions I get from people is "why are you doing X when your spreadsheet says Y is better". And the answer is almost always "because what I'm doing has other advantages, and I believe those advantages are worth the theoretical damage loss". For instance, why am I using Mongoose and Berserking? Because a) I believe double-wound is stronger in practice than wound/deadly despite the damage loss, and b) with double wound, the damage difference between berserking and mongoose is quite small, and c) defense-raising procs have advantages over defense-lowering procs, and d) At the time I did it I expected it to scale better (though in 3.3 this may become less true), and e) it looks cool. And based on those aggregate advantages, I opted to go that route.

Thus: it's fine to not slavishly follow the spreadsheet; you just need to think about the tradeoffs you're making, the pros and cons of each, and decide if the theoretical damage loss is worth it. Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't. But it's still a good thing to be thinking about.

As a side note: I'm always skeptical of claims of the form "I tested it and it was a couple hundred DPS behind". The vast majority of such assertions - including this one, I would argue - are based on changes that can't possibly make that degree of difference. Please keep in mind that RNG happens. And it's a larger effect that you think it is. And be careful that the length of test you happened to choose isn't skewing the results.