If you use two mutilates (65% crit) between your finishers . Without Ruthlessness 1.5% you will get a 4pt finisher , 98.5% you will get a 5pt finisher .

The rotation would be 5e/5r actually

The biggest reason why I went with Ruthlessess over Murder and TtT is that with Evis, you pretty much need to use 5 points finishers. Also, the required use of Mutilate twice in a rotation seems to play moreso on the IP being in both hands.

Either way, it's a spec I'll run on Tuesday and see if there is a noticeable difference from IP/DP/Envenom.

I'm a bit curious of this myself, but I doubt it since getting Serrated Blades requires 10 points in Sub, meaning you'll have to drop 3 in CQC and 3 in Precision, to get 3/3 SB.. And I doubt it's worth loosing the hit..? Meaning you'll then have to stack hit gems (if your gear ain't the optimal) and you'll loose out on expertise and/or agi ~ crit/ap.. Which could end up in a rather large dps loss, compared to the rupture dmg gain and the armor piercing gain. Just my thoughts on it..

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Ruthlessness is a 3 point talent. I think you're confusing it with Relentless Strikes.

Can anyone explain why 5 point Evis is required? Using 4/5 point evis/rupture and 1 mutilate between finishers -> more Eviscerates? And using 2 mutilates you have 88% chance to waste one combo point? Yes additional IP procs are good, but are you sure IP damage outweights Evis gain from shorter cycle?

I apologize, my wording on that was not the best.

I meant to say that it would likely be much more optimal to use 5 point finishers rather then 4 point, because it requires two Mutilates per cycle which is an added bit of poison damage, on top of your Eviscerates hitting for a little bit harder. I also believe the difference in 4 to 5 point Envenoms is much smaller then the difference from 4 to 5 point Eviscerates.

Here's another random thought about IP/IP/Evis.

Assuming that setup, I wonder if it would be beneficial to equip a slow Dagger again, and possibily even in the MH?

Absolutely not. That defeats the entire purpose of going dual IP. The whole point is that IP with fast weapons does enough damage to offset the loss of damage by switching to Eviscerate from Envenom. Using a slow weapon would be simply horrible.

The reason for using Ip/Ip evis is to take advantage of the fast daggers for more poison proc on top of the 40% SnD. If you swap them out for a slower dagger, sure your Evis /mutilate damage may be increased slightly, but the there will be a decrease in your IP proc.

Your Evis damage isn't tied to weapon speed/dps at all, so slow weapons are even less good than you thought.

I'm trying it as we speak.

I also had it pegged as a dps loss until I realised that I hadn't chosen to have the target poisened 100% (from either a secondary rogue in the raid or a hunter) The latest version of vulajins spreadsheet defaults to the target always being poisened and it shows a little over a 3% increase with the new spec and double IP, I will be running naxx with it tonight. Fusive can you give any thoughts on it so far in the raid?

- Without Sunder from a Prot Warrior, it sucks.
- The rotation feels a lot tighter, and I don't seem to have nearly as much overlap in SnD, and Rupture time is much closer to 100%
- Getting in a 2nd Evis between Ruptures is pretty much non existant without Ruthlessness.

A combat rogue providing Expose will also work.
I agree, rotation does feel a lot tighter which should actually be better.
2nd Eviscerate does happen, but not as often as with Ruthlessness and Envenom. For me I managed to squeeze in a 2nd Eviscerate every 3-4 ruptures. I'd guess with double WD you might get one every 2-3.

Actually this spec can keep EA up reasonably well, since the chance you end up with only 4cp is very low.

I'm wondering if the SS will be updated so that it will use an evis IP/IP build. I'm struggling with where to put 6 talents. 3/3 evis? 3/3 ruthlessness? 3/3 TTT? Vulajin's says don't get ruthlessness. Based on his SS it looks like ruthlessness gets progressively worse as you get more and more buffs. Agree/disagree/thoughts?

I've more or less got the same numbers. Dropping Ruthlessness instead of 2/2 Murder and 1 point in TtT was a higher increase. Neto some said something about Vulajin's SS not recognizing a build/rotation without Ruthlessness, so take that however you will..

As much as I wanted to go a good WWS parse to compare last week's run using IP/DP/Envenom to this week's IP/IP/Evis, I can't. Decided at the last minute to do Less Is More, so as you can guess the DPS comparison would have been really messed up. Maybe next week I'll have something to go with.

I tried the 3/3 Improved Eviscerate on monday only to notice a slight loss in DPS throughout most of Naxx, when i switched back to IP/DP i noticed an increase of about 150-200 DPS with the Envenom model, could this be because i'm using dual Murder as opposed to WD which hasn't dropped for us yet but would .1 speed make that much of a difference?

I also picked up a Grim Toll, could the 40% armor ignore work better with IP/IP Eviscerate as opposed to IP/DP Envenom

Err, What other talents are you taking?
I already have 2/2 Murder and 3/3 TTT, so it's a choice between 3/3 Imp Evisc vs Filler talents like QR and FF.
So far on Sartharion-3D I noticed somewhat of a increase in dps, Malygos was as usual not all that great as melee.
Hopefully I can get a WWS from Naxx25 today.

I doubt it's a issue with double Murder, since I use the same setup and saw only increase in DPS.
Most likely it's do to gear differences, but since you're have PvP gear on Armory, can't be sure.

As for me, with my current gear and BiS, IP/IP reigns supreme over IP/DP according to Vulajin's latest sheet.

Grim Toll has been superior for me only on cases where I've been below poison hit cap. Once you have enough hit from gear, Mirror of Truth should become better.
About the armor penetration, it's still somewhat useless due to the same reasons as before.
It's applied post raid-debuffs.
3.1 might change ArP, in which case Grim Toll might become very desirable (perhaps even superior to Mirror of Truth).
Until we know sure, pick one up just in case.

I tested serveral Daggers on the Spreadsheet 0.4.7:
Before i used WD-IP MH and Twilight Mist-DP OH

I have only 1 WD, so i was searching for an fast OH dagger.

The result was, that the Papercutter is the best OH Dagger until i get the second WD using IP/IP.

Someone get similiar results?

Just one note, I haven't posted in a while but have kept reading on the forums and am glad to see that IP/IP has finally started to become a style that was put into practice by the rogue community. When I originally proposed it I could not imagine that ruthlessness being taken out of the spec was actually an increase in dps, I believe I sent one lone PM to Aldriana asking if he had a particularly accurate way of modeling it, but other than that pretty much dropped the idea. I tend to believe that only having to mutilate once for a 4 point finisher vs. having to mutilate twice for only one point higher, ruthlessness should pull out ahead. I will test it tommorow night in naxx however, and am looking foward very much to the results.

Went for an ip/ip eviscerate setup tonight in naxx 25. Rotations are extremely tight. Dps on patch could be a bit higher because I was missing things like savage combat 3% raidcrit and let HfB and SnD drop once. Still seems like a very viable spec though although the normal envenom setup does allow for alot more slack.

Patchwerk parse, can post a parse of the full run on request.
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