Combat and Mutilate Spreadsheets (Obsolete as of 4.0.x) - Page 89

• Maestroquark · 09/19/09, 8:50 AM

Originally Posted by Hallie

With an eviscerate only cycle, the tier8 4/5 is still worth 75 EP to me. The 2/5 tier9 is correctly worth 0 EP. Bug?

Not a bug. If you look at the calcs sheet, row 470 determines if a cycle is Eviscerate Only or not. Column "B" is your gear exactly as is. The remaining columns determine the value of certain changes - Column "AC" is for Tier 8 4-piece. 470 is probably 0 for all but AC, where it is 1. That's telling you that if you got the 4/5 bonus without changing a single other stat (i.e, impossible), you'd go back to a Rupture-based cycle and gain some DPS.

On the other hand T9 2/5 still does not boost Rupture enough to give more DPS than Eviscerate, thus it is no gain at all.

fikshunn · 09/19/09, 9:08 AM

Thanks Aldriana for all the work you do.

Just reporting an error: Knightbane Carapace on 1.3beta4 is set to 74haste and not 74arp which it should be.

Scrabbyrtl · 09/20/09, 10:19 AM

i wonder why your'e talking about dual WP again.
savage combat i still bugged on live. (@ WP only)
and the selfbuff fades everytime WP is refreshed on your target.
doesn't happen with WP/DP .

did i miss something? ; )

Wodahs · 09/20/09, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Scrabbyrtl

i wonder why your'e talking about dual WP again.
savage combat i still bugged on live. (@ WP only)
and the selfbuff fades everytime WP is refreshed on your target.
doesn't happen with WP/DP .

did i miss something? ; )

The graphical buff fades, but testing has shown the buff is still there.

Sarah · 09/20/09, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Scrabbyrtl

i wonder why your'e talking about dual WP again.
savage combat i still bugged on live. (@ WP only)
and the selfbuff fades everytime WP is refreshed on your target.
doesn't happen with WP/DP .

did i miss something? ; )

It doesn't happen with WP/WP if you're offhand swapping DP as well. In this case, Savage Combat stays on the target as long as you have a stack of Deadly Poison ticking. So it has nothing to do with using double wound as much as having another poison on the target.

Edit: Apparently only the animation is bugged.

Scrabbyrtl · 09/20/09, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Wodahs

The graphical buff fades, but testing has shown the buff is still there.

my combat log says something different

tested yesterday @ target dummies

xx-times buff gains / run out

Lightshadow · 09/20/09, 12:49 PM

If you test with a fixed-damage ability like gouge, you'll see that you get the bonus as long as a poison is present, even if the graphic (and the combat log) would indicate otherwise. It really is just a display bug.

Speaker · 09/20/09, 8:43 PM

Okay, so when using the speadsheet I get about the same EP value for crit and haste, so I'm trying to choose between 10 agi/10 crit, and 10 agi/10 haste. The spreadsheet shows about .2 dps gain per haste gem, but with different combinations sometimes crit comes ahead. So, I'm trying to find what would probably be most optimal, and what I've come up with is that if you gem crit you will get a dps benefit when AoEing, but haste you will not. Other than that the single target dps is negligible.

Does anyone have any other reason why you would gem for haste over crit, when crit affects your AoE?

Joigahdenn · 09/20/09, 9:12 PM

Thats a decision that you need to answer entirely on your own. Something to keep in mind is your current raiding content. If you're in content that requires a lot of AoE from rogues (starting off with some Uld HMs for example), then maybe you value crit more, but if you're focusing on single target DPSing bosses in some other content, then the highest single target DPS might be what you want (which in this case sounds like a mix of Deadly and Deft Ametrines). Sounds like you've got all the info you need, just have to make the decision for yourself.

• Aldriana · 09/20/09, 9:13 PM

When you switch to double wound setups, haste tends to win outright - and as double wound has some advantages on a number of current progression fights, that's an advantage worth considering.

Also, for AoE, Crit is better than Haste only insofar as Prey on the Weak is active, and there's some notable circumstances where this isn't the case.

Scrabbyrtl · 09/21/09, 8:54 PM

Originally Posted by Lightshadow

If you test with a fixed-damage ability like gouge, you'll see that you get the bonus as long as a poison is present, even if the graphic (and the combat log) would indicate otherwise. It really is just a display bug.

i've tested it a few hours ago. (i was naked and had just equipped my weapons)

gouge damage without poisons : 133
gouge damage with WP (refreshed) : 133
gouge damage with DP : 138

i don't know who did your tests some time ago. he was wrong! it's 100% NOT a display bug.

just test it yourself

Plaga · 09/22/09, 6:29 AM

Originally Posted by Scrabbyrtl

just test it yourself

I was convinced that it was only a display bug, but after reading your post I did the test too: removed my trinkets and used unenchanted weapons, so no procs will mess with the results:
no poisons: 848-849 dmg
dp: 882-883 dmg
wp: 848-883 (with an average of 872 in 10 hits)

~3 hits out of the total weren't affected by the buff, wp was present for the whole duration of the test.

Here you can see recount data for the 3 tests(the order in the image is: No poisons, wp, dp).

cougarhawk · 09/22/09, 10:38 AM

Using 3.2.2 ArP conversions and Agility gemming, 2T8 and 265 passive ArP with neither of the magic trinkets, I'm finding that the beta 4 sheet is showing an Evis cycle as within 2-4 DPS of a Low Rupture cycle (higher or lower depending on whether or not it's set to use Tricks on cooldown). Switching from a Rupture setup to an Evis one pushes the EP of Agility from 1.98 to 2.03.

This struck me as a little odd since it goes against the conventional wisdom that quite a bit of ArP is required for Eviscerate to be worth it. The only plausible explanation I can think of is that I've found a niche mixture of Crit and ArP that makes Eviscerate more efficient than non-critting Ruptures, but in case this is actually a bug in the cycle calculations, I've decided to upload the two versions of the sheet to filefront for you. My hit chance is quite low (below the poison cap with raid buffs) but I made sure I wasn't crit capping even during a Greatness proc in case that causes some sort of edge condition error in the calcs.

3.2.2 Agility Low Rupture
3.2.2 Agility Eviscerate

• Aldriana · 09/22/09, 11:04 AM

So, I've been working on an updated Mutilate sheet for a while, and finally have something worth posting (if decidedly still beta). As usual with stuff I classify as beta, it is more or less guaranteed that there are bugs - there's a couple I know about (see list below), but there's probably quite a few that I don't know about as well. So, as usual, if you find anything that seems weird, let me know and I'll take a look.

Basically, this is the calculations from the previous mutilate sheet stuffed into the UI of the combat sheet, with some minor revisions to calculations to be more consistent with the way things are done in the Combat 1.3 beta sheets (so as to improve accuracy of straight-across comparisons between them), plus fixes for a bunch of bugs I found while working on it. So hopefully it's a bit more accurate as well as being updated with new gear.

Also, all the 3.2.2 changes have been made.

In terms of using the sheet, there's a couple key differences relative to the Combat 1.3 betas:
1) Cycle determination is not automatic, and that's, frankly, unlikely to change. So where 1.3 beta 4 reports the cycle you should use, this one has selection boxes.
2) Some talents are essential for the model to work, and are thus hard-coded; these talents have no selection dropdown, and the value is greyed out to represent this.

In terms of known issues:
1) Rupture-free cycles are not yet implemented.
2) Cold Blood and Murder don't do anything yet.
3) Any bugfixes to the gear or recommendation pages that have been made since 1.3 beta 2 or so have not been ported over. I don't know if there actually are any of these, as I haven't really had a chance to check, but I make no guarantees that there aren't some bugs of that sort (improper item stats, etc.) that I haven't had a chance to catch.

• Maestroquark · 09/22/09, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

3) Any bugfixes to the gear or recommendation pages that have been made since 1.3 beta 2 or so have not been ported over. I don't know if there actually are any of these, as I haven't really had a chance to check, but I make no guarantees that there aren't some bugs of that sort (improper item stats, etc.) that I haven't had a chance to catch.

Quick catch: Dark Determination bracers are still listed with 50 Haste, instead of the proper 50 Hit. This was also a bug in the last combat release, and has been mentioned previously I believe.