Combat and Mutilate Spreadsheets (Obsolete as of 4.0.x) - Page 9

Zeratfule · 02/19/09, 6:39 PM

Hey Van I just looked you up on armory, when you ran dual IP were you using Sinister Revenge in your MH? your armory shows you as having that equipped so I wasn't sure.

Vanadi · 02/19/09, 6:40 PM

No I was using dualwield WB. I only use sinister's for farming/trash and heroics.

Zeratfule · 02/19/09, 6:42 PM

Ah, okay thank you.

Danzir · 02/19/09, 7:50 PM

Originally Posted by Vanadi

Went for an ip/ip eviscerate setup tonight in naxx 25. Rotations are extremely tight. Dps on patch could be a bit higher because I was missing things like savage combat 3% raidcrit and let HfB and SnD drop once. Still seems like a very viable spec though although the normal envenom setup does allow for alot more slack.

Patchwerk parse, can post a parse of the full run on request.
Wow Web Stats

what do you normally pull given the absence of those same buffs? In other words, do you see this setup as not only viable, but better than standard mut?

Neto- · 02/19/09, 7:56 PM

There has been enough talk of IP/IP/Eviscerate for some time now and it is undoubtedly better than the regular Mutilate for Naxxramas fights, as they have a short fight duration and Bloodlust uptime benefits IPIPEvis more than IPDPEnvenom. I've been running with it for at least 2 weeks before the 3.0.9 patch and have always seen higher numbers with it, despite not having a second Webbed Death, both in-game and in the spreadsheet (after modifying it accordingly).

blbrchnk · 02/20/09, 7:53 AM

Originally Posted by cyrusz

I tested serveral Daggers on the Spreadsheet 0.4.7:
Before i used WD-IP MH and Twilight Mist-DP OH

I have only 1 WD, so i was searching for an fast OH dagger.

The result was, that the Papercutter is the best OH Dagger until i get the second WD using IP/IP.

Someone get similiar results?

I did before I had WD. I had Murder MH and the best OH I could use was LPC. Now I have Murder MH/WD OH. Figured that they'd be the other way around, but that is what the spreadsheet tells me to do.

RookieWan · 02/20/09, 7:59 AM

I was wondering, is there a break even point where in classic mutilate build the white damage from a slower MH is overtaken bij the IP damage from a fast MH?

I'm in a casual raiding guild, so I haven't got access to WD or Murder (yet), but I'm currently using a Titansteel Shanker as MH and LPC as OH. I have a 2nd LPC in the bank.
I tried VH hc with two LPCs equipped, but Recount showed a decrease in DPS compared to my usual TS MH, LPC OH.
I havent had time to try dual LPC (which seems to be regarded as a viable alternative to dual WD) in a raid yet, maybe tonight I will give it a try. Because the fights in hc's are over much quicker, I was wondering if there's a break even point after which the dual lpc will gain me more dps, which would explain the lower dps.

blbrchnk · 02/20/09, 9:18 AM

Originally Posted by RookieWan

I was wondering, is there a break even point where in classic mutilate build the white damage from a slower MH is overtaken bij the IP damage from a fast MH?

I'm in a casual raiding guild, so I haven't got access to WD or Murder (yet), but I'm currently using a Titansteel Shanker as MH and LPC as OH. I have a 2nd LPC in the bank.
I tried VH hc with two LPCs equipped, but Recount showed a decrease in DPS compared to my usual TS MH, LPC OH.
I havent had time to try dual LPC (which seems to be regarded as a viable alternative to dual WD) in a raid yet, maybe tonight I will give it a try. Because the fights in hc's are over much quicker, I was wondering if there's a break even point after which the dual lpc will gain me more dps, which would explain the lower dps.

Check the spreadsheet.

RookieWan · 02/20/09, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by blbrchnk

Check the spreadsheet.

Thanks I will.

//edit

gramer · 02/20/09, 10:15 AM

Here is WebStats for Patchwork last night, WD IP + Murder IP, build with ruthlessness, though I forgot to switch 2 points from Murder to Turn the Tables since Maly fight. I still miss few items and I had no 2nd set bonus

Double IP + Evis feels easier to manage than IP/DP + Envenom, you dont have to watch your poison stack and cycle is shorter from what i feel, so its easier to keep HfB/SnD/Rupture up. I do one mutilate between finishers most of the time and 2-4 evis between ruptures.

Kukulcan · 02/20/09, 10:36 AM

i use wd and murder too , but on the dummies the ip\dp setup with envenom came out better than the ip\ip setup with eviscerate.

I use the same cycle for both specs , like 2 muti between finishers so i start with garrote usually and pop SnD , then get 5 points and refresh snd, after that i do 2 mutis and then rupture, 2 muti and then evi\env and so on.. sometimes just 1 cause snd would drop.

cyrusz · 02/20/09, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by blbrchnk

I did before I had WD. I had Murder MH and the best OH I could use was LPC. Now I have Murder MH/WD OH. Figured that they'd be the other way around, but that is what the spreadsheet tells me to do.

My Spreadsheet tells me the same, that Murder MH/ WD OH is 2dps better.

Originally Posted by Kukulcan

i use wd and murder too , but on the dummies the ip\dp setup with envenom came out better than the ip\ip setup with eviscerate.

I use the same cycle for both specs , like 2 muti between finishers so i start with garrote usually and pop SnD , then get 5 points and refresh snd, after that i do 2 mutis and then rupture, 2 muti and then evi\env and so on.. sometimes just 1 cause snd would drop.

IP dmg scales with AP, so in raid it will outdamage DP.

CarlGrossman · 02/20/09, 11:20 AM

great idea. does anyone know if there are equialent spreadsheets for other classes - like Shadow PRiest? Or some more modifiable thing?

gramer · 02/20/09, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Kukulcan

I use the same cycle for both specs , like 2 muti between finishers so i start with garrote usually and pop SnD , then get 5 points and refresh snd, after that i do 2 mutis and then rupture, 2 muti and then evi\env and so on.. sometimes just 1 cause snd would drop.

I'm doing finisher at 4 combo points if I have them, shorter cycle seems more attractive to me and you don't waste combo points this way. Dummies are bad to test your dps on, its very different from what you have in raid. Don't forget you usually have poisoned target in raid (well at least i have) from other rogues and hunters so that is already big damage difference for mutilate. DPS cycle is much shorter in raids (due to stat buffs, crit bonus, debuffs on boss etc). And I find it difficult to determine your DPS on dummies, I get different results on different tries with same gear and spec, even if they are 10 mins long

Joigahdenn · 02/20/09, 4:33 PM

Originally Posted by gramer

I'm doing finisher at 4 combo points if I have them, shorter cycle seems more attractive to me and you don't waste combo points this way. Dummies are bad to test your dps on, its very different from what you have in raid. Don't forget you usually have poisoned target in raid (well at least i have) from other rogues and hunters so that is already big damage difference for mutilate. DPS cycle is much shorter in raids (due to stat buffs, crit bonus, debuffs on boss etc). And I find it difficult to determine your DPS on dummies, I get different results on different tries with same gear and spec, even if they are 10 mins long

I agree. Test dummies are horrible at testing spec/gear changes for raid dps, unless you manage to get the entire raid to come slap your test dummy around for a while (good luck). From what I gather, dummies are only good for testing more basic *mechanics*, things like base chance to miss (i.e. hit), chance to be dodges (expertise), etc.

The reason you're getting different results on dummies with the dame gear/spec is likely because someone is running by while you are hitting the dummy and applying either a buff to you or a debuff to the dummy. There might be other factors involved like latency and your attack timing.

Rath · 02/20/09, 8:15 PM

I'll be trying out double IP on both my WD's with Eviscerate next Naxx run and report back. Here's a WWS of our latest PW with the standard Envenom build: Wow Web Stats . My DPS might seem a little high, partially because we were going for Immortal so melee holds back until the off tanks eat Hatefuls (shortens the fight for melee by almost 10 seconds).

wykedtron · 02/21/09, 3:01 PM

I tried the dual IP and evis set up this past nax run and my results were much better. Note that on the patches fight i did not have a second WD equiped and had a murder. For purposes of showing the DPS difference focus on the Patchwerk fight as i got my second WD later on (whcih made me be #1 a few times).

Here is dual IP - Wow Web Stats
Here is IP/DP - Wow Web Stats

Should also be noted that the Dual IP stats on Patch was without Improved Eviscerate nor the Glyph. Obviously daul IP is superior to IP/DP assuming you are OHing a murder and have the poison supplied which is reasonable in most raid set ups. For those that do care the improved evis and glyph was put in just before Heigan the Unclean. Dual WD came after Anub.

Kukulcan · 02/22/09, 2:00 PM

So i am interested in this IP\IP and evi finishers spec ,and i will try it next naxx, only concern is about the rotation ; i am getting weird results from the spreadsheet but i think is cause of ruthlessness.

Anyway possibly 3-4 point evis + 4 point ruptures is better than 5 points evi and 5 points rupture cause of the extra evi u can put in ? I think the difference wouldn't be a lot anyway.

sinophilic · 02/22/09, 2:20 PM

Originally Posted by wykedtron

...

Should also be noted that the Dual IP stats on Patch was without Improved Eviscerate nor the Glyph. Obviously daul IP is superior to IP/DP assuming you are OHing a murder and have the poison supplied which is reasonable in most raid set ups. For those that do care the improved evis and glyph was put in just before Heigan the Unclean. Dual WD came after Anub.

If you have a muder and a webbed death (I currently have these weapons) and they're both IP, shouldn't you keep the muder on the MH for improved mutilate damage? The only reason people have webbed on the MH was because it was the dagger with IP in a IP/DP set up, and you wanted it for the poison procs on finishers. But since they're both IP it shouldn't matter

Grunge · 02/22/09, 4:49 PM

This is correct, Murder in MH, WD in offhand comes out 2.12dps higher than WD/Murder.

cowboydan · 02/22/09, 5:38 PM

How does Bandit's Insignia rank for rogues? I was surprised when it didn't appear on the spreadsheet because it seems to be in high demand.

saedo · 02/22/09, 5:44 PM

Originally Posted by cowboydan

How does Bandit's Insignia rank for rogues? I was surprised when it didn't appear on the spreadsheet because it seems to be in high demand.

Among the lowest among the epic trinkets at this level. The proc doesn't really scale well so it can be good at lower gear levels then drop down.

Dankseven · 02/23/09, 12:59 PM

Ok so I'm running the cookiecutter 51/13/7 mut spec. with IP Papper Cutter/DP Sinister Revenge. I've been reading on this site and wowinsider that I should be shooting for poision hit cap(319) and expertise cap(26/214), but I feel like some of the top DPS rogues aren't capped like that.

How important is it to be poision hit cap and expertise cap for a mutilate rogue? What's a good balance between AP/Crit and Hit/Expertise? I've been gemming/enchanting to reach these caps and so my power/crit chance has dropped. I've been using Vulajin's spreadsheet and it seems it weighs AP a lot more than hit/expertise.

Thanks

wykedtron · 02/23/09, 1:37 PM

Originally Posted by Dankseven

Ok so I'm running the cookiecutter 51/13/7 mut spec. with IP Papper Cutter/DP Sinister Revenge. I've been reading on this site and wowinsider that I should be shooting for poision hit cap(319) and expertise cap(26/214), but I feel like some of the top DPS rogues aren't capped like that.

The thing you have to keep in mind is that there are buffs that most raids have that reduce the required hit rating. As far as exp, i have done fights with 11/11 exp and 21/21 exp etc and really have seen no major difference. Research the hit caps and i'm sure you'll find out why people are not going so high.

I can't remember where i read it but i'm almost certain i read that due to the changes in 3.09 the frosted adroit gloves are no longer best in slot and valorous are? I really can't figure out this spreadsheet

Kaidagar · 02/23/09, 6:53 PM

The Hit/expertise caps are something to work towards, not something to reach at the expense of everything else. With upgrades in naxx you should reach poison hit cap with little difficulty. There is no perfect balance as each person has different gear, these are goals to work towards when considering your item choices, not absolutes that must be met. The spreadsheet is the best and fasted way to draw conclusions on upgrade choices.