Combat and Mutilate Spreadsheets (Obsolete as of 4.0.x) - Page 98

Yuntiff · 10/07/09, 5:19 PM

Expertise is generally not *the* stat because of what the poster before you noted. That being said, while capping is not necessarily the most important thing, more expertise will help you sustain your rotation better and it will decrease the variance level of your dps in similar encounters.

Xaoc · 10/07/09, 5:23 PM

I personally try to stay as close to expertise capped as possible. Being an Orc, its a little bit easier due to the current weapon itemization available, but I find that with both BiS gear sets I can make (pre-25 heroic and post), socketing a single 20 exp gem nets me a 1 DPS loss, and brings me from .68% dodge to .07%. A 1 DPS loss is such a minute amount that I'm more than willing to forgo it to make me feel better.

Professor Hurt · 10/07/09, 5:29 PM

Being expertise capped for Mutilate is quite valuable due to finisher dodging. For example, in my current gear expertise is valued as high as any other stat. It also helps with cycle stability (granted, less of a concern as envenom only). For combat, expertise runs about 75% of the Mutilate EP value, dropping it below quite a few other stats. As mentioned above, this is mostly due to undodgable finishers. So, best bet is to use the spreadsheet(s) to determine upgrades. Personally I still go for the expertise cap for cycle reliability and undodgable kicks.

Tinwhisker · 10/07/09, 5:30 PM

Originally Posted by Professor Hurt

Personally I still go for the expertise cap for cycle reliability and undodgable kicks.

Both parry and dodge are turned off during casting, therefore the only way a kick can be dodged is if you missed the cast entirely. Kick always follows the rule for specials and misses though, so 99 hit is always required (more without precision).

RazorOye · 10/07/09, 5:36 PM

Originally Posted by Yuntiff

Expertise is generally not *the* stat because of what the poster before you noted. That being said, while capping is not necessarily the most important thing, more expertise will help you sustain your rotation better and it will decrease the variance level of your dps in similar encounters.

The difference in my dps - according to the spreadsheet - is about 75dps using old gear vs. new upgrades, so it becomes a dilemma deciding if it's worth it - losing all that expertise vs. gaining that dps.

I just got them last night so I suppose the only way is to enchant/gem it and check it out in the raid... it just feels dirty riding with that low expertise

Aarcani · 10/07/09, 5:40 PM

Originally Posted by RazorOye

The difference in my dps - according to the spreadsheet - is about 75dps using old gear vs. new upgrades, so it becomes a dilemma deciding if it's worth it - losing all that expertise vs. gaining that dps.

A DPS gain is a DPS gain regardless of which stat it comes from. Expertise doesn't have some additional value beyond providing DPS so if one gear set gives you higher dps using stats other than expertise there really isn't a dilemma. In essence you're deciding whether its worth it to get 75 more dps, or not.

Now if you were talking about assassination there is some benefit of cycle stability from expertise that isn't really modeled so if the dps is close you do have another factor to consider.

Yuntiff · 10/07/09, 5:44 PM

As combat, expertise really only takes off (to an extent) as you get into the weapon swapping game. Until then, it will help you with your cycle stability, but if the spreadsheet is saying one is a dps upgrade it probably is. Since the spreadsheet is meant to be used to best help your playstyle, try those out in raid and pay attention to your cycle maintenance. You might also find it worthwhile to socket some expertise if you are having trouble with your rotation for whatever reason (less combat potency profs for example).

• Aldriana · 10/07/09, 5:45 PM

It's worth noting that with double WP setups, Expertise does pass Agility in value, such that with softcap setups you can easily wind up socketing for Expertise if not capped.

In terms of the original question regarding BIS setups: I think it's pretty clear at this point that Heroic Calamitous Fate + 4/5 T9.258 wins. However, there are a number of individual pieces that beat their T9.258 counterpart - just not by enough to offset the loss of set bonus. However, as T9.258 pieces will be in short supply for, um, a while, there's value in collecting the offspec pieces - using Calamitous Fate, Leggings of the Broken Beast, Gloves of the Silver Assassin, Bloodfang Hood, and T9.258 Shoulders is less than 1% behind, and probably quite a bit easier to get for most of us. Note, however, that it does involve socketing a few Expertise gems to optimize this alternative setup.

nelalas · 10/07/09, 7:01 PM

Originally Posted by Professor Hurt

Presumably one wouldn't glyph and talent for rupture if you're trying to obtain accurate eviscerate only feedback. So, even if what you are saying is true, it doesn't really matter. The best way to find out accurately is to make two copies of the sheet, one for Evis and one for Rupture. Talent/gear appropriately, then compare the dps figures.

I don't think that you understand either my post or your original post. Your original advice was that one can simply update their gear as they acquire it and the spreadsheet will automatically suggest an eviscerate cycle when it is optimal; this is not true. Without actively changing talents and glyphs for eviscerate, the spreadsheet will always suggest a Low Rupture cycle. Thus, one needs to track the DPS output of the sheet under both rupture and eviscerate talent + glyph configurations to determine which is optimal. Creating two different files is one option, I guess, but I find it's easier to simply track both in the same file and my initial post contains the information on how to do that.

Professor Hurt · 10/07/09, 7:06 PM

Originally Posted by nelalas

I don't think that you understand either my post or your original post. Your original advice was that one can simply update their gear as they acquire it and the spreadsheet will automatically suggest an eviscerate cycle when it is optimal; this is not true. Without actively changing talents and glyphs for eviscerate, the spreadsheet will always suggest a Low Rupture cycle. Thus, one needs to track the DPS output of the sheet under both rupture and eviscerate talent + glyph configurations to determine which is optimal. Creating two different files is one option, I guess, but I find it's easier to simply track both in the same file and my initial post contains the information on how to do that.

What version of the spreadsheet are you using? The version I have does exactly as I outlined (the latest version of the beta and the only "official" one compatible with 3.2.2 afaik). Again, this applies to the latest(?) combat sheet.

Edit: After re-re-re-re-rereading your post, it's possible you mean that you are using the latest version of the beta, but aren't changing the talents/glyphs to Eviscerate, yet expect it to tell you when to switch them over and/or when to shift Eviscerate-Only. Perhaps there is a bug that prevents Eviscerate-Only from ever becoming viable if you haven't talented/glyphed properly, or perhaps with talents/glyphs it always pulls ahead. Or as a third option, perhaps Ald figured anyone who still glyphs and talents for rupture clearly wants them in their rotation, so why suggest otherwise?

I still stand by my suggestion. I find it much easier to play with gear sets when I can keep them both separate (Rupture and Eviscerate will benefit from stats differently), and trust that the spreadsheet is giving me accurate information. I simply don't trust my ability to add your features into the sheet without possibly creating additional bugs.

• Aldriana · 10/07/09, 7:39 PM

Okay, to clarify:

There are ways for me to figure out, given your gear, what the best cycle and spec for you to use is. However, doing so in a spreadsheet is challenging, and quite apart from that it's a *lot* of extra work. Hence, I'm not doing it.

Instead, what I'm doing is, given your gear and spec, figure out the best cycle. So if you're using Glyph of Rupture and are specced Blood Spatter, it will work out how much damage your ruptures do, how much damage your Eviscerates do, and some other relevant information, and figures out your cycle for you. But the capacity to figure out how much damage you actually do assuming you're specced differently from the way you actually *are* is something that I haven't even put *any* time or effort into, nor do I plan to.

So: when you reach some critical point, the spreadsheet isn't going to suddenly respec you to Eviscerate because it's better. It's going to take what you tell it for gear and spec, and figure out how to do the most damage with what you have; but to compare Eviscerate specs with Rupture specs is just like any other spec comparison - all you can do is spec into each and see which results in more damage.

Jarush · 10/07/09, 7:43 PM

Originally Posted by nelalas

I don't think that you understand either my post or your original post. Your original advice was that one can simply update their gear as they acquire it and the spreadsheet will automatically suggest an eviscerate cycle when it is optimal; this is not true. Without actively changing talents and glyphs for eviscerate, the spreadsheet will always suggest a Low Rupture cycle. Thus, one needs to track the DPS output of the sheet under both rupture and eviscerate talent + glyph configurations to determine which is optimal. Creating two different files is one option, I guess, but I find it's easier to simply track both in the same file and my initial post contains the information on how to do that.

I don't know what is your problem. The spreadsheet tells what is best rotation with your currend gear and with your current talents. So it works exactly how it is supposed to.

Looks like you are confusing some things. It doesn't mean suggested rotation with any spec but best rotation with your current gear and spec.

killarss · 10/08/09, 1:47 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

In terms of the original question regarding BIS setups: I think it's pretty clear at this point that Heroic Calamitous Fate + 4/5 T9.258 wins. However, there are a number of individual pieces that beat their T9.258 counterpart - just not by enough to offset the loss of set bonus. However, as T9.258 pieces will be in short supply for, um, a while, there's value in collecting the offspec pieces - using Calamitous Fate, Leggings of the Broken Beast, Gloves of the Silver Assassin, Bloodfang Hood, and T9.258 Shoulders is less than 1% behind, and probably quite a bit easier to get for most of us. Note, however, that it does involve socketing a few Expertise gems to optimize this alternative setup.

Just ran the numbers myself, as I'm at my home computer not work anymore.

Using BIS gear with Cuirass of Calamitous Fate (HM) = 9663.9
Using BIS gear with Bloodfang Hood (25Man) = 9690.8
Using BIS gear with Gloves of the Silver Assassin (HM) = 9676.7

This is done with me adding in the numbers for the Bloodfang Hood myself. Also, I gem full ArP with dual DV's when calculating these numbers of course.

I'll wait for your new ver to come out to be more certain, but nonetheless I don't see any big difference. IMO just get whatever you can first. I'm sure it would be a bigger raid upgrade to pass one of these items as BIS if another rogue needed it and you had 1 of the 3 already.

Edit: I assume using a single DV combined with Runestone and having to regem a decent amount would shift these numbers a bit too. I'll look more into it when I'm not passing out.

mattipanduro · 10/08/09, 4:16 AM

Hi.

I am having some trouble with the spreadsheat lately Combat_1.3(beta4).xls. Been using it for a while now and I have not had these problems before.

The other day I was switching out some gear and playing around with glyphs and talents. All of a sudden, all colours in the sheet are gone, and all the cells where I put my gear are empty. I can still see sockets, enchants, talents and glyphs and the DPS is still correct, just can't change gear anymore.

I thought, oh well shit happens and downloaded the sheet again. Typed in the gear manually which was not predefined on the sheet, chose my gear in "Equipment" tab and switched correct sockets and enchants. I noticed here I was for the first time on a Evis only cycle with Evis glyph and talent. Switched around between evis glyphs/talents and rupture glyphs/talents and the exact same thing happened again. All gear cells are empty and all the colours in the sheet are gone, and I can't change gear anymore.

I Redid the whole thing 2 more times, and it keeps happening when I play around with talents and glyphs. It might be when theres a change in my cycle cell. Havent testet this yet but im going to as soon as I get home from work.

I was just wondering if anyone else have experienced this, if its a bug or me screwing something up.

Sorry if its the later, and thanks in advance for any advice.

I apoligize in advance for any miss spelling/grammar errors, as english is not my native language.

I apoligize if this have been discussed before, I have looked through all pages in this thread, but as there is allot of pages I can't rule out I might have missed it.

EDIT: Just tested it again, and tried switching around with talents/glyphs so my cycle would change. It has not happened yet though. Very confusing.

sp00n · 10/08/09, 5:42 AM

Originally Posted by mattipanduro

The other day I was switching out some gear and playing around with glyphs and talents. All of a sudden, all colours in the sheet are gone, and all the cells where I put my gear are empty. I can still see sockets, enchants, talents and glyphs and the DPS is still correct, just can't change gear anymore.

I had this very same thing happen to me yesterday (Excel 2007 on Windows7). Closing and reopening the file made it work again for me. Haven't seen such a behaviour before, so I shrugged it off as a fluke.
IIRC I was playing with the glyphs when this happened. Or more precisely, removed Evi glyph so only 2 glyphs were active (to emulate FoK glyph), alt tabbed here, alt tabbed there, and when I changed back in after some time, the fluke appeared.

Didn't try to reproduce it yet.