1. Specials all still proc motes, and mutilate can still proc 2 (although it seems like a low chance)
2. Yes HnS still does.

I'll run some autos with quick daggers for about an hour and a half and upload that, and if that isnt enough i can run one for much longer later

It occurs to me that Heartpierce should probably be re-tested in light of what we're finding with Tiny Abom.

Do you expect that the proc has changed, or just that it should be retested to verify it was modeled correctly the first time?

I really want to know which offset gloves you chose. There aren't any good gloves except the set ones. At least if I didn't miss something.

Sorry, typo. Legs + Gloves set, other three offset, for Mutilate. Regardless, all of this is moot now in light of the Tiny Abom nerf. I hope to have that nerf implemented and something pushed out yet this afternoon, but, as usual, no promises.

I will say that preliminary indications are that this nerf pretty much cripples the trinket for us; I'm finding it to be basically completely useless for Combat and only marginally worthwhile for Mutilate. So hopefully they're not quite done playing with it.

Regarding Heartpierce: my concern is that, given that they just made it so poisons can't proc Tiny Abom, it might be worth checking whether poisons can still proc Heartpierce.

I guess shiv + deadly poison would be the best way to determine this and see if Invigoration procs of deadly ticks? Because shiv + instant is just not possible to figure out what procc'd Invigoration. I had at least 9 Invigoration procs regenerating 84 energy in ~10 minutes shiv'ing every 5 seconds.

Long parse - 500 Manifest Anger attacks, hack and slash - approx. 3% of my damage.
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Going to do one with poisons now, and I'm willing to bet the damage will drop to 1.5-2%

Of course will the part of your dps that was generated by the trinket go down in relation when you add an additional dps source. That's basic math isn't it? If you do 97dps with melee and the trinket generates 3 dps and you add 50 dps worth of poison, the relation of the trinket dps is bound to drop to a lower percentage of overall damage. (3% -> 2%)

This is of cource if Motes don't trigger from poisons.

Re: Heartpierce. Autoattack with poisons on is fine.

Chugbleach: what weapon speed(s) were you using for that parse?

Need a view on Enchants for Muti rogues from the more experienced theory-crafters here, now that Haste is so much more desirable. All the sheets are telling me to take Berserker or Mongoose, rather than Black Magic which looked quite interesting at one point. From what I read on these forums, the general view was that the 35 sec ICD would kill BM as a viable enchant, especially since it was only a 10 sec buff. Some people still seem to think it has some merit in a weapon swap scenario.

But when I was doing some testing with Proculas, I got some wierd results (over about 50 procs, so hardly exhaustive);

Berserking: 2.31 PPM, uptime 23.49% (which feels like this is 1ppm based on the uptime, so don't get why proculas was saying 2.31 ppm)
Black Magic: 1.83 PPM, uptime 27.32% (which is about what i would expect with a 35 sec ICD).

So;
Question 1 - are these uptime/ppm about what people would expect based on our understanding of these enchants?

Question 2 - if it is, can someone explain why BM is scoring so badly on the sheets? 250 haste with an uptime of 27% feels like a good trade off compared to 400 AP at 23%, given what the sheets are telling me are sensible EPs these days.

Feeling dumb... looking for someone to help bring enlightenment...

Two 1.5 speed swords.

Here's the one with poison, although I don't see the point. It's clearly been nerfed, and I'm pretty pissed about it.
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

If the speeds shouldnt have been used in that manor let me know and I can run more tests, or anything in general...

Turning a perfectly good trinket into garbage, seems like such a waste. What class is this now even viable for? I heard that ret pallys might end up needing the hit at high end gear, and maybe they're lucky enough to have it proc off of seals and DV....otherwise, pretty unimpressive.

I suppose it's *possible* that in trying to make it not proc off of weapon enchants they overdid it and removed poisons, but I'm sure that's just the side of me that is pretty angry that they'd nerf something so hard after only a handful of players got to test it and use it.

@ Faergun

Like Ald said, On a boss like Festergut I show berserking to be up around 72% of the fight.

The other side of this story is that you can swap another fast dagger in the offhand with black magic and deadly on it to proc the buff every 35 seconds, in attempt to have black magic up along with a double stack of berserking.

Also in hopes that you don't risk losing any poison damage.

To the best of my knowledge this is more of a pain than any type of dps gain, because the two weapon swaps you need to do reset your swing timer, which hinters white and poison dmg. If you could manage to swap directly after your offhand hit, and the dagger you swapped to was identical in speed and dps, I can imagine a dps increase, but that is not probable.

Of course that's my speculation. I don't recall there being much discussion about this ever since the issue with weapon swapping was addressed in 3.3 with the buff to deadly poison stacks. Excuse me if there has been already.

Mavanas has run some numbers on weapon swapping Black Magic and found it to be generally not worth the trouble.

I haven't run final numbers for us yet, but Tiny Abom is likely to still be marginally useful for some classes (such as Mutilate rogues), for reasons of advantageous proc behavior on certain fights if nothing else. Like, it's not *useless*, it's just a bit underwhelming for a 264/277 trinket. Of course, my sense is that this is true for quite a number of classes now, so it's entirely possible that they'll tweak it a bit more yet. So I think the cries of "Tiny Abyss Crystal in a Jar" are overstated - it's underwhelming and could use a buff, but even if it doesn't get one it isn't completely useless.

Hmm I hope you figure out more from those logs than me, because for me it looks like Heartpierce is only proccing from melee swings in those logs.

Both logs are done with Heartpierce only (MH / OH as needed), no procs beside the berserking enchant on the dagger.

So, looking at the autoattack log, we have 1184 autoattacks; based on the 1 PPM proc rate, if it were only proccing off hits, we'd expected to see between 24 and 47 procs; we in fact observe 59. So it's (probably) proccing off more than white attacks. And adding in DP applications (not ticks, applications) brings us to an expected 54 with a standard deviation a bit over 7, so the data is a pretty good fit if you posit that it still procs off DP applications.

However, in the shiv test, we have 17 procs off 453 attacks, which actually *is* consistant with it not proccing off poisons; and if we had all the DP applications, it's no longer a good fit for the data

So it looks to me like Heartpierce might work the way Tiny Abom did until yesterday - it procs off white poisons, but not yellow poisons. We'd need some larger tests to be sure, sadly.

Edit: With the help of a larger test by nuoHep, I can confirm that Heartpierce is still proccing off white poisons, including both the Deadly Poison application and the resulting IP proc. As yet TBD how it works on yellow attacks proccing poisons.

I spent a little time hacking out estimates for the new proc behavior. I haven't checked all possible gear sets and compared them against each other, but based on the gear sets that generally turn up as most advantageous, I can get some ballpark figures.

Looks to me that in BIS gear H:Abom is still BIS for Mutilate, about 50 DPS ahead of the best setup without it (Herkuml+WFS). Of course, the fact that a 277 trinket only marginally surpasses a pair of 264 trinkets, one of which can be gotten from badges, is a bit depressing in it's own right, but, um, anyway...

For combat, it's pretty clearly inferior. BIS is either going to H:DBW and either Herkuml or H:WFS.

So, in it's current incarnation: still useful if underwhelming for Mutilate, and useless for combat.

Now the Rupture cycle is removed, the Rupture glyph can be removed as well.

Heartpierce should be tested with a different type of attack not shiv. Poisons from Shiv are incapable of critting, perhaps they are incapable of proccing either.

I have XT logs from yesterday and today with Heartpierce on, and while the sample is obviously small, I was down over 15% uptime. I don't have time to run dummy tests tonight, but I'm guessing it suffered the same fate.

I have a log from some Festergut attempts from last week and I'm raiding right now, so I will compare the Invigoration uptime to see if I can see a general trend or a large difference. I know this isn't ideal, but it should be able to give a general idea based on total uptime during stand-still boss fights.

EDIT: So for 2 separate 5 minute Festergut fights from last week, I have 69.5% and 62.8% uptime on Invigoration. Tonite, on a 5 min fight on Lady D, where I was dedicated on boss shield, I have a 49.2% uptime, and a 6 minute Saurfang fight with an uptime of 52.8%. All fights are 25 man.

EDIT2: Compared Berserking uptime too, and for the Fester (pre-fix) fights, I had ~70% uptime on Berserking, and today, I had ~50% uptime.

I'm seeing the same thing when comparing tonight's Saurfang to previous weeks. Berserking uptime has gone down by an average of 16% for me. Now, it could just be a bad week for me on that fight and I sat Festergut so I can't compare that either.

Edit: On a hunch I also looked at our prot pallies uptime on mongoose for the same fight and saw an even larger decrease. This may be related to the Bryntroll nerf for paladins though.