Wait, so i'm not the only person who dose like 1.2-1.3k dps in 5 mans?

If you're Mutilate and your group is AOE'ing through the whole instance 1.3k DPS could be "normal" on trash (not on bosses) considering you would barely have time to land one Mutilate per mobs before things go down.

As combat you should be near 2.5k DPS on heroic trash (sometimes close to 3k+), save your Blade Flurry to couple it with Killing Spree on large packs every 2minutes, use Fan of Knives everytime it's useful (+3mobs), never let S&D go down and land as many Eviscerates as possible since your Rupture won't tick more than 2 times if things go down fast.

You shouldn't worry too much about trash as Mutilate as long as you do your job on bosses and your group isn't lacking DPS !

Does anyone else feel that our raid utility was balanced around a talent that was removed during beta? What I'm referring to is the changes to Deadly Brew. Now the talent is great for pvp but I think its original intentions were to allow us to run deadly/instant on one hand and a utility poison on the other. Of course with us being in the mindset of DPS comes first(and rightfully so) we would take advantage of the additional dps rather than the utility.

Perhaps as an idea they should baseline the utility poisons around wound poison. Give anesthetic and mind-numbing the same damage component. This way when we use them for utility we have some of a trade off but not giving up all our dps at the same time.

It fits reasonably well into a rupture/envenom cycle, though you largely lose the ability to do extra envenoms between renewing rupture. That's w/o the glyph or speccing into Imp EA, both of which would make it easier though the lost talent points would hurt dps further. Obviously, I'm not presenting math here, but having done it quite easily in the 10 man setting, I'm confident that there's plenty of fat in the calculation. Of course, none of that contradicts the huge opportunity cost you've mentioned.

As to what I'd characterize as our problem: bigger "penalty" for short duration boss fights (especially as mutilate). It's making us look a lot worse than we actually are, when other classes have long (and thus relatively more powerful) cooldowns available to use the same number of times we do. If fights get longer (and I mean for real longer, not longer because there's some period everyone has to run around doing nothing except dodging fires and regenning mana), then we'll get a bit more shine. In the mean time, I can put up 4k+ dps and still be lucky to place top 10 against other dps class+specs.

I think we can all agree that you are correct here Aldriana, but I don't think people are proposing solutions so much as asking questions. Perhaps I am incorrect, so I will speak expressely for myself when I say that I was wondering what inclincation blizzard had in nerfing some of the better talents/abilites in assassination. Deadly brew was a very interesting idea I thought, and also very exciting, and now it got nerfed to on 'only pvp' ability. And this is where I am at a loss, part of the major issue with tweaking rogues is that we are so touchy that even a small change in pve could end up being massinve in pvp.

But, they took out an ability that would make us more pve viable, to add a very, very helpful pvp ability effectively getting rid of the need to use deadly poison (which would break gouge, blind) and go dual instant, or put mind numbing in one hand and have reduced cast time, run speed, and do damage with IP.

Many of us aren't coming up with wishlist ideas at all, just attmempting to understand what prompted our class to have some of our better talents taken away/nerfed.

No chance. For PvE, Deadly Brew essentially functions as a second "free" IP. There are second-order effects on the speed of stacking of DP, but the main effect is that you get 2xIP + DP instead of 1xIP + DP. IP is ~20% of your total DPS, thus the effect of the original Deadly Brew can be approximated as a ~20% increase in DPS. For a three point talent, that is vastly over budget: a talent point generally gives something of the order of a 1% damage increase. It looks like the concept of Deadly Brew was created before they decided to buff poisons to be such a significant proportion of our damage. If we were back in Sunwell days, with IP being ~3-5% of total damage (which it was if you didn't have WF and used IP instead), it would be appropriately budgeted.

Personally... I don't like the muty spec. It's not fun for me. Combat is more my style, but as we all know, it just doesn't stand up to the rest. I was the first rogue in our guild to spec HaT. Immediately, I saw an increase in my personal DPS in this spec. I find it interesting to play and a lot more like combat than anything. Even after they fix the bug in a future patch, I will remain HaT because I get better results from it. I really hope they fix rogues because our only task is to DPS. Sure we can interrupt, but look at DKs. They mele and interrupt just as often. They provide a lot more to a raid/guild than a rogue right now. Oh wait... I have anesthetic posons... woopie :P

I have started leveling a DK and really enjoy it. I'll be gearing him up as best as I can. Not going to change my main at the moment, but it'll be nice to have it in my back pocket if blizzard fails to address rogue dps problems.

If pressing one button the whole fight is "fun" to you than the idea of playing a DK seems like a contradiction.

That and they never could quite get the talent to work for all poisons correctly.

(It seemed like every time they got the IP/DP portion to work, they'd break the Wound/Mind/Crip portion)

I know Aldriana doesn't want to see a bunch of long-winded pissing, moaning, and complaining; nor does he want to see "suggestions" for how to fix things.

That's good news, because I can't think of anything that would make Killing Spree anything but the most badly conceived and poorly executed 51 point talent.

For trash, it's frankly only useful if you have BF up, making its bursting while combined with FoK pretty effective. On bosses, I have yet to see anything worth mentioning in terms of added damage. Combine that with its outright bugginess and it's a 51 point talent we often leave in the bag lest we aggro adds or find ourselves directly underneath the boss's anus when the ability has completed its spasmodic routine.

Part two of what I just don't "get" about Killing Spree is this: how can this be a 51-point talent when it often fails in all its bursting glory to kill even a non-elite mob? For single targets, it's hardly effective.

So while I'm not interested in reading about suggestions because I agree (principally) with Aldriana about wild-eyed theories, I would like to know if others have read anything from GC et al about when/if Killing Spree is going to undergo changes. As of December 24, 2008, it's what makes the Combat tree dubious.

It seems as though Killing Spree might be available at around tier 5...not tier 11.

Hitting something 10 times in 2.5 seconds while being immune to any sort of CC is bad. No it isn't. KS is one of the best talents gaven out in this expansion.

Its badly implemented, tracks you to critters, and can leave you off your target at a not inconsiderable distance. I personally think it is nice burst, but Im not sure if its worthy of a tiers end talent, but with its implementation I could hardly agree its one of the best talents given out this expansion. Turn the tables, focused attacks, prey on the weak, even the new vitality have to be better than killing spree.

So a couple of points here. First, Blizzard has stated that they don't necessarily want 51 point talents to be required, or something that you go down then entire tree just to get. The intent is that if you're deep into the spec anyway, it's probably worth taking - but it's not necessarily a super-awesome ability in it's own right. So even if you were right and KSp is of marginal PvE utility - the fact that it's a good PvP talent that anyone going PvP/Combat would take is sufficient to justify it's existance.

Second, it's far from useless in PvE. Just because it doesn't kill a single mob doesn't mean it doesn't do a lot of damage to it. Just because it's better when used with Blade Flurry on packs doesn't mean it isn't still good when used without. And despite what you may think it does add appreciable damage in boss fights and other such sustained situations.

Now, is it circumstantial? Yes. It's not the sort of thing that you can just blindly mash on cooldown and expect to get optimal use out of it. There are situations where you can't (or shouldn't) use it, whether due to the risk of aggroing stuff or the risk of carrying you into a bad position, or whatever. And that's fine. But there are also a lot of situations where you can and should, as it adds significant amounts of damage, among other advantages it grants. So to characterize it as useless in PvE is shortsighted.

Hence: it's good in PvP, and it's useful in PvE; in terms of raw damage output (on fights when you can use it safely) it's actually one of the highest-DPS talent points in the tree. No, it's not an I-win button, but it's not really supposed to be. So if you're really that unhappy with it... I think it's a case of unrealistic expectations, as while it does have limitations it's still a very good ability overall.

Well stated, although I respectfully disagree. It may just be a matter of tastes and preferences, but for me, positioning is of the utmost concern in raids. With the agreed upon bugs regarding the use of Killing Spree (oops, I just attacked Mr. Bigglesworth because I didn't see him chasing a rat in the corner), I can only agree that it's a very risky talent.

I also don't understand how we can underestimate the value of this talent being 51 points. Yes, you don't have to take it, but that talent is at the end of the rainbow as it were. If it's only of circumstantial value, then why not put it at an earlier tier? I think it boils down to its PvP viability and it's clearly an exceptional talent for PvP/Combat.

I just don't think we agree about its value to PvE, which might (again) be more a matter of tastes and preferences than anything else.

I should have mentioned that I don't mean the flat +percent talents, but abilities. None of the things you mentioned (aside from vitality) really change that much when it comes to changing the way the class is played or giving it new possibilities to excel at odd situations.

There are several reasons why KS is a good talent, after playing exclusively combat in both pvp and pve past few weeks.

For pve, it's one of the best scaling burst damage moves available. Back then in TBC, I always had the issue of on-hit buffs almost never crossing well and basically messing everything up. But they almost always cross for 3-4 seconds because of the way internal cooldown is set. Use that window for KS and you will see a real good chunk of dps difference.

The other extremly nice use is for following things properly, when you normal cannot. The talent increaes your dps uptime on any sort of target that keeps moving, to give you an example: KS on p2 Muru would be god-sent. If that doesn't sound so well, dps difference on something like Noth with or without KS is pretty significant.


Things like critters are really non-issue and don't have anything to do with the grand design of the spell. Bugs can always be fixed.

--

(I know we talk PvE, but it's not like they make trees for just pve or pvp so here it goes: )

Now, PvP is where the talent really shines, despite the general mistrust. KS is the answer for most of the issues combat had in PvE, people just haven't figured it out yet. For one it gives reliable burst potential to combat (AR isn't in any form reliable burst in pvp). It also make you immmune to CC so It's very useful both offensively and defensively.

It's only risky if you want it to be. It's perfectly viable in almost all fights in the game, it's just something that needs user discretion. The only fight where it would really be a bad idea that I can think of is Thaddius. Every other fight you can just wait for the boss to use the dangerous ability so it goes on cooldown and then use it - such as Kel'thuzad's Frost Blast.

Anyways; at this point, there are many HAT parses without abusing the bug that are considerably better than all our Mutilate/Combat parses thus far. I don't know if it works that well without a hunter-stacked group, or if it was intended by Blizzard, but perhaps we should start looking into it more closely, as much as most people loathe the spec.

Well, the culprit of HAT DPS being that good is obviously the hunter's pets. They crit too much, and when coupled with the hunter's crits, it's pretty insane. That and Call of the Wild stacking (though that's gone next patch) are probably the biggest reasons we're seeing those parses. I'd consider pets giving you combo points a bug, and I'm sure HAT DPS would be toned down substantially if those are removed, but we can't tell for sure if it would still be competitive or not.

So going on a bit of tangent I'd like to chime in on the whole State of the Rogues deal now. My guild did a 25 man Naxx last night (Wow Web Stats).

Going through boss by boss, I never topped the meters. One thing I had against me was that I was spec'd combat, long story short, cause of lack of daggers and now the last source of Blood Frenzy / Savage Combat. Another thing is gear, I believe others have started passing me, by armory I didn't have the 4 pc T7 til after last night, shoulders and legs were non-set from Naxx 10. I'm by no means a good rogue or anything, but got top 2, top 3, top 5, etc, throughout the night. Sad state of rogues right?

Well, here's what really got me to write this. I took a look at the "All Bosses" split and was surprised to see me at #2. Only one to beat me was a BM hunter, who I'll consider an outlier that'll be nerfed by next patch. So despite never topping meters on a single boss, only getting #2 once, I seemed to be consistent enough to be competitive overall on the fights we care about, Bosses.

For most others, so it seems they have their own gimmick fights which allowed them to best me, then fell behind on other bosses. If this is the state rogues are in, I don't think it's all that bad. Might not get the epeen top the meters KO punch for a boss, but can win boss meters at the end of the night via points.

Hello everyone, long time lurker, first time poster. The above statement intrigued me. The dps cost of letting HfB does seem to be extraordinarily high given our energy regen mechanic (as opposed to a rage mechanic). I thought the idea above was somewhat unique to the discussion so far. If it were to prove overly complicated to link HfB to something like rupture, or EA, maybe something even simpler, like increasing the duration would work. Make HfB more like a warriors battleshout by extending its duration from 30s to 3 min or so. The stacking could remain with no problem, but the overall energy gain from not having to refresh it as often would allow more Envenoms etc, and I would speculate that our dps would increase by an acceptable margin.

I was also curious, what if combo points were to reside with the individual rather than the target? It seems the opportunity cost to switch targets as a Mutilate rogue is extraordinarily high. Allowing combo points to move with you would make it easier to keep your cycle running while swapping about. I think a change like this combined with a small change to HfB (as listed above) could improve our energy availability enough that good rogues would be able to convert that availability into a nice dps upgrade. Optimal rogues would even do better. Such an impact would have a pretty minor pvp effect as well, which would hopefully keep the qq'ing about burst dps classes at an even level instead of making it worse.

Anyways, those were a few thoughts I had as I read this thread. Thanks for the good work you all are doing, I have definitely learned alot.

Choopster

Has apparently been discussed many times by the dev team, but they're sure they don't want to do it. You're also dead wrong about the PvP impact. Think of the implications of being able to build combo points on one target while chaining Deadly Throw on another target that's trying to escape another team member. Or the ability to build combo points on the person next to you, then Shadowstep to the healer and have an immediate 5 point Kidney Shot.

That is very true, I hadn't thought of that particular scenario. I was thinking more of the HfB change as not impacting pvp much since A) most pvp specs don't bother taking HfB and B) Even if they did, the damage component wouldn't be changing and with the length of pvp fights, the energy recovery wouldn't seem to be enough to make a difference.

I definitely concede the combo points issue though. Since asking for talents to behave differently in pve and pvp is an unrealistic request, the combo points issue is probably a dead one. It really would have only helped us on trash and a FEW bosses in pve, so probably not a very good solution for the current perceived dps problems.

I look forward to hearing more ideas on how we can improve within our current capabilities! Hopefully the dev's can come up with something neat in the meantime to help even the playing field sooner rather than later. Its nice to scale well at very endgame, but a shorter timeline that what was experienced in TBC would be nice.

Choopster

As stated previously, a concise rebuttal but imho, not accurate. Its Tier 11, if the validity of tiers didn't matter and expressed no concern of usefullness or power, then why have tiers at all? Just put everything in a bucket and lets us pick/choose what we want since the expression of power is not married to tier level. A quick review of the other classes and their 51pt talents reveal alot more usefullness and much less situational (perhas an exception: frost mage and deep freeze). I mean, look at fire mages burnout, a very buffed version of prey on the weak.

Also, you quote GC and what I have found is that GC changes definitions of circumstance at will. In the beginning, the 51pt talents were tier 11 and denoted by "much added buffness", for lack of better terms. Rogues seem to have alot of these fluffer talents, ala 'throwing specialization' that fill upper tier slots but are so situational they are just ignored. The lack of impressiveness of the 51pt talents for rogues is nothing new and then to validate the unimpressiveness by quoting GC, currently, is not being fair to the original intent of the tier 11 talents.

I just recently read GC quote that patchwerk is not necessarily a good barometer for rogue dps since other classes also don't move. Yet, previously, he quoted that Patchwerk was a fair assesement for rogue dps. My point being, that when rogues are referenced, talents, dps, skills and intent are ethereal sort of things that change at will. This is an observation.

What is the real intent of this thread? For 'n' number of people to denote issues and then to have one person wave away all concerns? Seems like this thread is more about damage control and creating false perceptions than it is about fixing real issue or concerns.