I particularly don't understand how warriors scale with gear any better than us? Most notably in TBC, I can't recall any Warrior parse, with best in slot gear, beating the rogue equivalent. I don't know why everyone seems to assume they scale better when all the past experiences say otherwise. If it is rage generation, keep in mind that we also gain energy per second as we gear up.

Yes, it does, but that doesn't make my point any less valid, at least for now. I obviously can't tell how things will look like in Ulduar, but for now, it's better to have a Mutilate Rogue go Combat than have a Fury Warrior go Arms, as the difference between Mutilate and Combat is fairly minimal pre-Murder and Arms is kind of underwhelming (from what I have heard so far). And for the noticeable argument... it really holds no ground here - a buff is a buff.

I think, as far as raid utility from buffs and debuffs goes, the lack of real utility on the rogues part really only shows in 10 mans or 5 mans. In a 25 man raid, as it has been said already, all of the buff and debuff slots are going to be taken care of with 8 players. After that, everyone is on equal footing. So, it's hard to make the same argument as we have made in the past that rogues should be top-dog DPS all the time. Although, there is still an argument to be made for classes who bring an OT to the raid, or pinch-heals, etc, doing better than us.

Just a thought, but if TG warriors are currently putting out 5k DPS compared to an equally geared rogue's 4k DPS, I'm guessing that some of these so called "off the wall" suggestions might be reasonable. We're lagging by 20% in that specific case, against a hybrid that we're supposedly meant to slightly out-dps (according to GC, by something like 5%). This means things like bringing back some of the pre-nerf beta talents would be a reasonable suggestion.

Not that I'm advocating suggestions per-say, but I did see a suggestion on the US-DD forums which caught my eye. Allowing Rupture to stack/roll like Deep Wounds sounded quite interesting. Any thoughts on that?

Edit:
I don't know where you're getting "8 players to cover all raid buffs" from. Our raid has been minus a feral druid and an enhancement shaman for a couple of weeks now and it definitely shows. Those buffs are definitely not duplicated with any other class. I can see how there's definitely still room for giving overlapping buffs to other classes, rogues included.

Well, while not so much in 5mans, in 10mans I'd consider Expose Armor a very, very important buff, even though we are pretty bad at maintaining it.

We're also very GOOD at maintaining a healing debuff, a cast time debuff, and a tranquilizing 'debuff' - which comes to great use in Gluth and Sarth, and the usefulness of which will, going forward, depend a great deal on encounter design.

They are easy to maintain, but there also a good loss in DPS if we have to go from IP/WP to MP/AP. For Combat the Healing debuff is fine because WP is superior for us.

Currently, having to do EA, AP or MP during a boss fight means a good loss of DPS for Rogues. I don't know whether thats true for other classes or not though.

Yah, that's kind of why I spaced EA out of my considerations of rogue buffs/debuffs. We can do it, yes, and it is a huge boost (I find myself doing it all the time unfortunately, and it doesn't make me very happy >.>), but I feel that if it's coming at a large expense to our own damage, it shouldn't be considered into our regular list of buffs/debuffs we're bringing to a raid.

We're better off bringing it than having it off the table. And i actually find, even running WITH a warrior - that i use it a surprisingly large amount in wrath raids - and generally not running into the issues of keeping it up discussed elsewhere in this thread, primarily because of the situations in which I use it - specifically, I use it on Malygos in P2, on the airborne adds, I use it on Sartharion Drake adds, which are generally tanked by a feral or DK for us, and I use it on Kor'thazz on 4 Horsmen (again, it's the mob our Warrior isn't on) - generally, none of these mobs is up much more than the duration of one expose, so refreshing is pointless, and it's trivial to use Cold Blood to force a 5 CP Expose at the start of the fight (in the case of the drake/kor'thazz) or the difference is small enough that it isn't worth forcing a 5'er.

Or course, if there's a combat rogue in the group, I make him do it. :P

T.T It's harder for combat to do than mutilate.

Also, I should say that I know it's better for me to use it in the absence of warriors...It's just that spreadsheeting it out, my personal dps would increase by 100 if I could simply run a rupture cycle. But, since my guild doesn't commonly run with warriors (a situation we might overcome soon, if recruiting goes in our favor), I'm the only major armor debuff in the raid. This means that both my 2 pc T7 bonus and my glyph are significantly reduced in effectiveness, because the only time I get to really use ruptures is on tank and spanks, and even then my cycle is frantic at best.

I should also state that I like to compete with the others in my guild. No one really sees that I'm boosting physical damage, and I hate using it as an excuse for when I get beaten on fights. I've never been a huge fan of utility specs for that one reason.

The opportunity cost of EA is just through the roof compared to the alternative a warrior brings, this horse has been beaten to death before, TWICE.

And yet, as skyhigh as that opportunity cost is, the benefit still outweighs it. I'm merely making they point to those who argue 'run with a warrior nub' that even with a warrior around, there are times I find myself running EA and they aren't nearly so infrequent as to be unmentionable.

Okay, let me see if I can summarize the overall state of rogues here; there's been a lot of circular arguments in the past few pages, so in the interest of clarifying, allow me to state the situation as objectively as I can.

First, on rogue overall DPS level. Now, we have seen parses of rogues being within the top couple on Patchwerk; we've seen rogues comment that while they're rarely tops on any one fight, they're frequently near the top boss DPS on the night. Hence, there's a plausible case to be made that a good rogue can do near-top DPS without exploiting HaT. As far as I can tell, there are three main refutations of this:

1) Yes, rogues have won Patchwerk's, but they've been sort of low DPS Patchwerks - we've never seen a rogue crack 5k DPS. My response to this is: fine, here is a WWS of a rogue at 5200. So rogues can, in fact, crack 5k and even reach the 5.2k number suggested as typical of other top DPS classes by Neto here. So top rogues are doing DPS competitive with other top classes.

2) Yes, the top rogues are doing well, but average rogues are struggling, presumably just because the class is too hard to play. I don't think we really have enough evidence to say either way on this assertion; however, most people are describing rogue DPS as, at worse, "middle of the pack".

3) I don't know what these other rogues are talking about, I'm always out of the top 10 on DPS - clearly the class needs a buff. Well, other rogues are doing competitive DPS; you are not. Perhaps you should investigate what they're doing different that's allowing them to do so much more DPS before assuming it's an inherent flaw with the class?

So, overall: our DPS is somewhere between "competitive" and "average". Now, given that Blizzard's goal is not to have any one class as the top DPSer, "competitive" is about the best we can hope for. Thus, while we might need a slight buff to go from "average" to "competitive", I think it's safe to say that while rogue DPS may need a slight buff, it certainly doesn't need anything at the 10% level.

Now, buffs. Lets look for a moment at what buffs rogues bring:

• Expose Armor. One of the strongest buffs in the game. Admittedly we're a lousy applier of it, but in 10 man situations it's not uncommon to do it anyway, and it even happens in 25mans on multitarget pulls. So while it would be nice if it were cheaper to apply, it's still a valuable addition.
• Savage Combat A reasonably minor buff, but still worth a solid 750-1000 DPS in Patchwerk-type situations, which is far from negligible; and we're one of the best sources of the debuff (Arms warriors may be competitive, but not clearly superior).
• Master Poisoner A good but not great buff, that we're probably the second best applier of. Like Expose, it will usually be done by a Paladin to the extent that such is possible; but on some fights, particularly in 5 and 10 mans, it cannot; so the utility cannot be discounted.
• Wound Poison. Combat rogues get this for free (as do Arms warriors) so are one of the best sources for this; while it's not often useful, when it's needed it's critically important.
• Anaesthetic Poison. Far and away the best source of this debuff, which, again, is circumstantial but essential when needed.
• Mind-numbing Poison. It certainly costs damage to apply this, but the same is true for warlocks so it's unclear who's best to apply it. Again, circumstantial, but usually important.

So: as a class we have access to 6 buff/debuffs, and are clearly the best source for 1 and arguably best for the other 3; while the last 2 we aren't the optimal source for, they're also very good buffs and not always present in sub-25 mans.

Now, all our debuffs are able to be duplicated by other classes, but so far as I know there's only 2 debuffs that's not the case for, Heroism/Bloodlust and Blessing of Kings. So I don't see how that can be held against us.

So, all in all: we have a reasonable suite of debuffs compared to other classes, and our damage is at worst slightly below where it wants to be. However, I don't think how it can be argued that this makes are current status "pathetic" or "doomed" - it may need a bit of adjustment, but all in all it doesn't seem to me to be ridiculously off where it needs to be.

So, on basically one of, if not the best non hat rogue dps totals to date, you were still beaten by a hybrid, and you don't think that needs adjusting?

Stop playing the old WoW.

Anybody that can do DPS is meant to be 'competitive' within a few percent.

Hybrids topping the charts is the way it's supposed to be assuming those hybrids have the gear and skill to do so.

Also note that I never said I was happy with the state of affairs - just that if a buff is needed, it's a fairly small one. I make no judgement as to whether it's needed or not.

Also note that while he beat me on total damage, his DPS is significantly lower; that kill was a little odd in that the 2nd hateful strike tank never got hit, so melee had to wait a longer time than usual before starting in. So saying he "beat me" when he was attacking for almost 10 seconds longer - and, I might note, I screwed up a bit on that fight, as there's an HFB drop - is a bit deceptive. Yes, he's competitive in the top couple - but then, he's supposed to be. And I'm competitive too, which, as I say, is about the best we can expect.

Obviously anyone that can DPS should be competitive but there should be a line drawn where you want to bring the player, not the class and right now in my opinion it is not the case at all. Fact of the matter is, rogues provide one buff that stands out from all the other minor poison buffs we provide which is Savage Combat (2% physical debuff) and you need to spec combat for it.

Now that you have that "one" buff which you can provide to the raid along with the other utility you could use, (such as EA and poisons) why on earth would you want to bring another rogue to the table if you have the choices of, a better DPS class? Sure, there has been a hand full of rogues above 5k DPS on a fight like Patchwerk, which is good DPS don't get me wrong, but most other classes (with the exception of 2) with equal gear and equal skill will push higher numbers then a rogue currently, which is exactly why they should receive a little love, especially combat.

That might be true, but has nothing to do with the post to which I was responding, which still uses the term 'hybrid' like a dirty word, and considers the possibility of a rogue to be outdps'd by one anathema.

The point is, in the current game, anyone who is Specced and Geared for DPS should be able to be competitive. Now, can you make the argument that rogues aren't, at this time, consistently competitive? Possibly - it's not a wide margin, but the argument is there to be made. Is the fact that a rogue putting up a fantastic parse was beaten by a moonkin who was also pretty clearly playing fantastically cause for this alarm? No. Our problems have nothing to do with the success of various non-pure DPS specs.

And again, I'd argue that Wound and Anesthetic poison are non-trivial debuffs, and while they are not universally useful, when you need them, they become very very very important. Being the premier source of them is non-trivial, and, quite honestly, if we do see any expansion in our utility, I'd hope it continues in the same vein - we're there to cripple our enemies, not support our comrades. NOBODY has a unique buff or debuff to bring to the table anymore, with the exception of Paladins and Shamans. Like I said, I think a lot of people posting in this thread need to stop playing The Burning Crusade before they can have any hope of realistically assessing where they stand.

Three times in the last two pages people have said, "Except paladin's and shaman's". I guess I must be seeing things when I have mark of the wild on my buff list from that boomkin, and while horn of winter may not be unique it does actualy stay on as a buff while we run round the room which I suppose qualifys as uniqeness.

Also when rogues get humiliated on damage metres in 10 man's and five man's I'm sure the general wow populace understands that we where giving that death knight an extra 2% damage because we had poison on the mob.

Okay, true, you also want Mark. But while Horn of Winter might be marginally superior to Strength of Earth, it hardly qualifies as "unique" unless you're going to count Anaesthetic Poison as unique as well. So we're up to... 1 paladin, 1 shaman, and 1 druid as "necessary" for raid buffs in a 25 man raid? Maybe 2 shamans, for fights over 5 minutes?

All in all the point remains: the vast majority of raid spots are not filled on the basis of unique buffs. And in redundant buffs: we are the best source of some, and a good source of several others - and, moreover, we can cover 5 different buffs without needing to respec, which is more than a lot of classes can do. I just don't see how buffs/debuffs is a credible argument for rogue gimpitude.

What I think a lot of EJ's are disregarding is the fact that about 70% of raids don't have all the buffs at hand. And rogues suffer most from that. To be really competitive we *NEED* buffs. If a rogue doesn't have 1-2 mid-high value buffs, the dps fumbles to dust.
This produces a unwanted behavior of all other rogues who watch in despair as the hunter breaks 4k dps, while they sit at 2.5-3k. ( I'm not going into how broken or not hunters are, this is a blunt comparison)

If it were up to me, I'd say that blizzard doesn't need to do ANY heavy "fix" to rogues, but rather reduce our dependability on buffs. We are like a sponge... We soak up all the good stuff, and mix it to bring "sweet foam"...
If this phenomenon were to be fixed, rogue's would be whining MUCH less.
[This is all from a raiding standpoint]

I still feel like the 2-3% number is a correct one. At equal gear and skill levels, there are 3 classes/spec that can consistently beat us: Fury Warriors, Warlocks, and Hunters. Then there are Mages, which can either be over/under us by a few percent each way depending on their crit streaks.

EDIT: Note I'm talking specifically about DPS on Patchwerk.

That parse you showed as an example of rogue damage being fine. With the boomkin doing more damage, you of all people know how to play to squeeze out dps at the moment, and you seem to have been lucky with drops as well.

That parse is on a non movement fight and was done by a class that throws a *clear* buff on the raid from the start in the form of mark of the wild, by a class that does bring other *clear* benifits to the raid apart from damage, I've been in plenty of fights where the fight was probably won by a druid battle ressing or innervating or even throwing tranquility at the right moment, or a shaman bloodlusting, I've even been in fights I know I stayed alive just because I had healthstone in addition to a potion cooldown. Warriors intervening at the right moment, etc etc.

Now some might say that in an ideal world where no one ever makes mistakes that these wouldn't be needed, but nearly all raids apart from the very best aren't composed of godlike players who never make the slightest mistake. So these abilitys are *clear* buffs that are brought to the table.

I remember some fights where I've looked back and thought to myself, I probably won that one, I blew every cooldown and burned that bastard into the ground and if I hadn't been there and a druid or a paladin had been there instead we wouldn't have killed that boss in time, now I never think that.

Hell, last time I could have won a fight and saved the day, boss almost dead, tank gibbed, well within our dps abilitys to burn the bastard down in time, the odd rogue moment that I'm sure some of you have had if you've played a rogue for a long time, I popped evasion and was insta gibbed by that huge huge dead zone that we have now even during evasion with our horrible horrible dodge rate now. At that point I truly felt useless.