Savage Combat. That more than makes up for slightly lower DPS.
Ah but Blizzard somewhat distanced the game from that kind of comparison. So I think Murder will be the culprit whose influence has to be removed to make Combat desirable on murderable fights. OK I'm maybe wishlisting now because I despise the very idea behind a talent like murder when every PvE-Change is so closely measured by our PvP-Imbaness.
As a Combat Rogue in LK, my main complaint is not about pure DPS but the sensitivity to non-related DPS factors that change our DPS. If you play with the Vulajin spreadsheet, you can see that Mutilate and Combat can be very close in DPS output on a Boss. However, Combat rogue suffer loosing DPS whean they loose Hit point in fight (via Prey of the Weak). Mutilate have perhaps the same thing with "Turn the tables" but in fact, we see on StatsisCL report that they have 99% uptime of this buff. Another "odd" thing for me, it's the fact that energy can be refund via OH proc (ruled by hit and haste) and combo point generation is ruled by crit via Sinister Glyph but Mutilate is mainly ruled by crit. Perhaps a way to improve Combat is to look about these factors.
Ah but Blizzard somewhat distanced the game from that kind of comparison. So I think Murder will be the culprit whose influence has to be removed to make Combat desirable on murderable fights. OK I'm maybe wishlisting now because I despise the very idea behind a talent like murder when every PvE-Change is so closely measured by our PvP-Imbaness.
Not really every change.
-A modification to +hit conversions, buffs and penalties would hardly affect PvP, simply because the hitcap for a player of your own level is lower than the hitcap for a boss 2-3 levels above you.
-Once acceptable amounts of resillience are in game, any modifications to raw crit will affect PvP way less than they affect PvE.
-Modifications to white damage will have less effect on PvP, which evolves more around yellow damage and CC
Adjusting specific abilities is what generally affects PvP as much, if not more than PvE. Adjusting cooldowns, damage components and effects of abilities immediately affects our burst potential, control and survivability, which are defining for the rogue class in PvP. For PvE, these are more a matter of utility. Sometimes valuable utility, but still utility. We do have some raid-only utility, which isn't a bad thing, but the utility we have should not be considered our core-bussiness in raids. Our core is DPS, nothing else, regardless of spec or encounter. If we're not DPS, then Blizz did a very lousy job at defining our other roles.
Kick / Gouge may be necessary at times, but even then our role is still DPS, not tanking. I personally wouldn't mind dodge-tanking being viable, but it's very obviously not what Blizz intended rogues to do.
Even "saving the day" by dodgetanking became harder, you'll last just long enough to get an MT battlerezzed before the instagib while you're on evasion, don't expect any more out of it.
You have to remember that Combat rogues bring a very non-insignificant buff - Savage Combat. That more than makes up for slightly lower DPS. In my eyes, they intend Combat to be the "buff spec" (much like Survival was for hunters back in TBC) and Mutilate the DPS spec. Mutilate has always been the clear winner in Humanoid, Giant, Beast and Dragonkin fights in Wrath, and if they balanced Mutilate around Murder (which seems to be the case), it makes sense to have Combat about 5% behind but bring a raid buff.
That's so not true. With that logic Retribution or moonkin should be 30% behind everyone else. I don't think blizzard balances spec based on "but they bring the best 2% buff while mutilate 3% buff is not as easy to get as paladin one". With the same exact logic Fury warriors should outdps everyone else as they bring no buffs at all in a typical raid situation (but they do, the fact that feral druid one is better is irrelevant in this new concept).
Combat, traditionally, been the DPS benchmark spec of the game, and I don't see why that would change, considering that the tree is the least competative when it comes to soloing/pvp as well. If we go by the words of tom chilton, he said he expects combat to scale better; Now we have to see whether they reach that goal or not.
Regarding murder; Why did they even move it? It seemed like some designer thought that the talent is really not that attractive with just 1% per point as it didn't work on undead which is probably the majority of the expansion, so they buffed it and then moved it down the tree, without really considering the outcome and the complexity it adds.
That's so not true. With that logic Retribution or moonkin should be 30% behind everyone else. I don't think blizzard balances spec based on "but they bring the best 2% buff while mutilate 3% buff is not as easy to get as paladin one". With the same exact logic Fury warriors should outdps everyone else as they bring no buffs at all in a typical raid situation (but they do, the fact that feral druid one is better is irrelevant in this new concept).
Combat, traditionally, been the DPS benchmark spec of the game, and I don't see why that would change, considering that the tree is the least competative when it comes to soloing/pvp as well. If we go by the words of tom chilton, he said he expects combat to scale better; Now we have to see whether they reach that goal or not.
Regarding murder; Why did they even move it? It seemed like some designer thought that the talent is really not that attractive with just 1% per point as it didn't work on undead which is probably the majority of the expansion, so they buffed it and then moved it down the tree, without really considering the outcome and the complexity it adds.
They swapped it with Blood Spatter (which seemed like a really weak talent that deep in the tree, and one that made a lot of sense for Combat & Subtlety builds to have access to), and increased it from 2% to 4%, to compensate for the move. I think the rationale behind why Murder is what it is is more determined by Blood Spatter, than Murder itself.
Has anyone run the numbers on how Combat would stack up to the current (non-Murder) Mutilate, assuming well itemized Swords? (2.7 MH, 1.4 OH, without excessive amounts of Stam and ArP).
They swapped it with Blood Spatter (which seemed like a really weak talent that deep in the tree, and one that made a lot of sense for Combat & Subtlety builds to have access to), and increased it from 2% to 4%, to compensate for the move. I think the rationale behind why Murder is what it is is more determined by Blood Spatter, than Murder itself..
Nope, they didn't. Blood spatter was just moved up after complaining that it made no sense down the tree and the fact that tier 2 was free. Murder was moved down the tree way early in beta.
Aldriana wrote "TotT applies 2 buffs to the buffer and 1 to the buffed player each time it's used. So, for instance, on the 5200 parse, I applied 3 and got 5. Which, yes, favors me slightly relative to the rogue I was with Tricksing. But it's not such a ridiculous imbalance that it invalidates the result."
This reveals another problem. If you are min/maxing, a rogue should never be the recipient of ToT. The idea that you should is a holdover from early theorycrafting about the talent. It went something along the lines of "we should tricks the highest DPS, which normally would be a rogue." This then led to speculation about 2 or 3 rogues passing it back and forth. This is no longer true. A rogue should not expect to be the highest DPS on any given fight. You should not have been the recipient of TotT. It is artificially inflating your DPS in that fight. Insofar as you are relying on ToT for personal DPS numbers, that is invalid. You should never have been the target, and the other rogue shouldn't have either.
Now it could be analyzed as a buff. But if you want to analyze it purely as a buff, you have to be sure that the buff is producing enough DPS in the mage or whomever that it would overcome the personal DPS loss of having a rogue instead of another mage or whichever class is out-DPSing the rogue. It is a nice buff, but it is single target and of limited duration. If you use it every single cooldown, perfectly, it should provide about a 3% buff to the target. So it should provide about 150 dps to its proper target, which again should most specifically NOT be a rogue as their DPS without Tricks does not justify being the target. At the very best parses for rogues with good competition, that seems just below the breakeven point--replacing the rogue with the better DPS class would be about the same so long as the rogue always targets the proper other DPS raid member.
But sometimes you'll guess wrong for a particular fight and target the wrong player. Sometimes your target will die and you'll have to switch causing you to miss a few precious seconds. These errors should cause small deficits in DPS, but we are already (and only in the best parses) at or below the breakeven point where the raid is better off just replacing us flat out with another member of the class which does better.
The question is, why not just do that? Why risk the annoying melee complications of someone wearing leather at close range to a boss? Why have someone who will need more healing than a non-tank plate wearer? Why have someone who will usually be right in the middle of the AOE? Why not choose a melee player with better DPS, and better armor, and more hit points? Why not choose a ranged player who will usually spend more time on target and need less healing?
That is essentially the question. Why not just have another 'X'. So far the only answer that seems remotely valid is for Combat--they bring a buff with a high opportunity cost if other classes had to bring it. But that might be enough if they were putting out Mutilate's numbers. But they aren't very regularly. And Mutilate is putting out the near-breakeven numbers, but doesn't have the buff.
So, a couple of points. First, while it may be true that in a PW situation, you should be tricksing a ranged DPS rather than a rogue, it's worth nothing that the practical considerations of the buff - which is relatively short-range - makes applying it to a ranged DPS somewhat of a challenge on certain fights, due to the necessities of positioning and movement. So in practice, I suspect you generally use it on the highest DPS melee, which, while it may at times be a Fury Warrior, will sometimes be a rogue as well. So Tricksing a fellow rogue isn't outside the realm of possibility.
However, the real power of TotT is it's flexibility. Yes, it's a somewhat marginal threat boost... but it's a very powerful tool in terms of helping control fights. For instance - will ranged DPS ever - and I mean ever - pull aggro in AoE situations once a rogue has tricksed 4 FoKs onto the tank? While threat is mostly a nonissue, there are times when tanks benefit from some help. Tricks also allows us to open instantly and safely on certain fights by tricksing our aggro onto the tank - which, coincidentally, means the rest of the raid can open that much sooner. Yes, it's a sustained DPS buff, but it's so many other things as well. Viewing it only for it's direct damage buffing potential underestimates it's value by a fair amount.
Also, it's worth noting that Mutilate *does* apply a debuff to the boss if specced for it. And while it may not be the optimal way of applying it, sometimes the optimal way of applying it isn't available. And I'm pretty sure a Mutilate rogue running IP/DP + Eviscerate for maximum debuff uptime still beats a Ret Pally on DPS, and it certainly beats an elemental shaman; so it's not totally outside the realm of the reasonable to bring a Mutilate rogue as the primary source of that debuff.
Next: while there are certainly people that beat us on DPS on any given fight, very few classes do so systematically. Hunters, yes - but they're being nerfed. Fury Warriors, maybe - though Blizzard has stated that if the TG change ups their DPS too much, they will nerf them elsewhere. Mages... maybe, though not all mages seem to. In short: what we seem to be finding is that the best members of the best nonrogue classes beat the best rogues... but the best rogues beat everyone else. So unless you can get 15 world-class mages, hunters, and fury warriors, it's totally reasonable to bring a good rogue. And if you're a bad rogue - it's not at all clear to me that you have grounds for complaint.
Finally: it might be noted that a great number of members of the community have asserted that we may need a buff on the order of 3-5%, which would solve all these problems in short order by actually making rogues top DPS - or very close to in - on many fights.
There's almost no point in reiterating this, but even with a 3-5% buff, none of the "thought experiment" Saabie suggests becomes invalid. It becomes perhaps slightly less valid, but hardly invalid. And given that the retribution paladin in your raid provides replenishment and a paladin buff, it'd certainly be an odd choice to select a rogue over said paladin. And if you are keeping both, then the mutilate rogue is not the primary source of the debuff.
I don't know where the debate went from the state of rogues to good rogues vs. bad ones, but I sure didn't used to be a bad one. Our "bad dps" was the arms warrior, who was there for blood frenzy and thus his less-than-top-end damage was tolerated. Today, in our raids, I am the replacement for that arms warrior. The numbers may be as extremely asymmetric, but they are ordinal-ly quite similar over the course of the raid.
I use Tricks on the tank, by the way, almost exclusively. It matters a lot on fights like Malygos, helps keep things in order on Patchwerk given the way we used our least geared tank as MT, and is still buffing their damage. Perhaps that's not min-maxing but having been reduced to providing little bits of utility here and there to make up for substandard damage output, it's certainly a raid benefit.
As for who is first, our retribution paladin does so much more damage over the course of Naxx than I do -- or really anyone does -- that perhaps we have a world-class one. I'm not sure how much of the "over the raid" problem is the utter hopelessness of competing on trash given all the AoE damage classes. But at the end of the night people look at the damage over the raid. Maybe the Fan change will help close the gap, time will tell.
After playing my rogue for over 4 years and reading and enjoying Ej treads same time, decided to reply to some of posts here.
They are made mostly by one prominent rogue whos work in rogue community I highly value and appreciate.
95% or more rogues here claim we are far back on dps in raid environment. I can nothing that to agree looking at our raid parses, seeing other dps classes beating me by 10-20% on regular basis.
But we have The Rogue here claiming that we are "not" that bad, that other classes are "maybe" better, and we have "powerfull" buffs.
Remember that most posters here have an excellent knowledge and experience with rogue class, so please start treating us with respect.
After playing my rogue for over 4 years and reading and enjoying Ej treads same time, decided to reply to some of posts here.
They are made mostly by one prominent rogue whos work in rogue community I highly value and appreciate.
95% or more rogues here claim we are far back on dps in raid environment. I can nothing that to agree looking at our raid parses, seeing other dps classes beating me by 10-20% on regular basis.
But we have The Rogue here claiming that we are "not" that bad, that other classes are "maybe" better, and we have "powerfull" buffs.
Remember that most posters here have an excellent knowledge and experience with rogue class, so please start treating us with respect.
My first and last post in here.
HAPPY NEW YEAR!
hi!!
it am good to read ur post i dont play rogue but i raid with them ever since 2004 which is when i got wow i was pretty excite to get at first and play a paladin btu then i went to druid
i think ur opinion is a retard tho its problem s with the wow communite that make things like this ,poor state of eduction and other fail , i try and try to makee rouges feel better wif hat-monkey and crit-monkey and so on and on but they never listen to me much like girls ^^;
After playing my rogue for over 4 years and reading and enjoying Ej treads same time, decided to reply to some of posts here.
They are made mostly by one prominent rogue whos work in rogue community I highly value and appreciate.
95% or more rogues here claim we are far back on dps in raid environment. I can nothing that to agree looking at our raid parses, seeing other dps classes beating me by 10-20% on regular basis.
But we have The Rogue here claiming that we are "not" that bad, that other classes are "maybe" better, and we have "powerfull" buffs.
Remember that most posters here have an excellent knowledge and experience with rogue class, so please start treating us with respect.
My first and last post in here.
HAPPY NEW YEAR!
hi ive never ever written anything in englis hbefore either so thats why post my is in decpihperable but its ok cos reli i just want to put caross my opinion which is that your gay and also that i play rouge bettr then you becuz i play since 2004
EDIT i forget to sine post so u no hoo i am
xXraiennaXx
Such is mankind, blind and bound to a dying world, nought but the writhing worm that mires itself in the corruption of its own progenitors. They who feast today do so in ignorance of their mortality, for tomorrow they must die or change and, if changing, then forever open their eyes to the dark hunger of eternal life.
They are made mostly by one prominent rogue whos work in rogue community I highly value and appreciate.
95% or more rogues here claim we are far back on dps in raid environment. I can nothing that to agree looking at our raid parses, seeing other dps classes beating me by 10-20% on regular basis.
But we have The Rogue here claiming that we are "not" that bad, that other classes are "maybe" better, and we have "powerfull" buffs.
Remember that most posters here have an excellent knowledge and experience with rogue class, so please start treating us with respect.
It's a well-known fact that Aldriana and everyone else who doesn't think the sky is falling is actually a secret Blizzard agent hired to spread lies and slander among the masses and their final intent is the complete and utter brainwashing of all high-end Rogues who read these forums to ultimately create an army and dominate the world.
We appreciate your futile efforts to resist, but unfortunately the words and layout of the posts in this thread contained massive subliminal messages and there's nothing that can be done to stop the reckoning.
Last edited by Neto- : 12/31/08 at 2:59 PM.
Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty
After playing my rogue for over 4 years and reading and enjoying Ej treads same time, decided to reply to some of posts here.
They are made mostly by one prominent rogue whos work in rogue community I highly value and appreciate.
95% or more rogues here claim we are far back on dps in raid environment. I can nothing that to agree looking at our raid parses, seeing other dps classes beating me by 10-20% on regular basis.
But we have The Rogue here claiming that we are "not" that bad, that other classes are "maybe" better, and we have "powerfull" buffs.
Remember that most posters here have an excellent knowledge and experience with rogue class, so please start treating us with respect.
I actually assumed this was heavy trolling and was looking for the spirit gems in his armory.
And Neto- is right, it's a secret Blizzard conspiracy and EJ is a Blizzard front to feed misinformation to it's customers because they hate us and want to keep us down. Anyone on EJ with more than 100 posts works for Blizzard and is not to be trusted.
After playing my rogue for over 4 years and reading and enjoying Ej treads same time, decided to reply to some of posts here.
They are made mostly by one prominent rogue whos work in rogue community I highly value and appreciate.
95% or more rogues here claim we are far back on dps in raid environment. I can nothing that to agree looking at our raid parses, seeing other dps classes beating me by 10-20% on regular basis.
But we have The Rogue here claiming that we are "not" that bad, that other classes are "maybe" better, and we have "powerfull" buffs.
Remember that most posters here have an excellent knowledge and experience with rogue class, so please start treating us with respect.
My first and last post in here.
HAPPY NEW YEAR!
I have a few issues with this post:
i) If you've been playing Rogue since launch you'd know that the class is actually Rouge.
ii) I'm a long time reader long time poster. HAI 2 U
iii) I'm babysitting tonight and can't even drink, Happy New Year isn't quantifiable.
I'm just waiting for the armory feature which shows days played...1337 baby woop woop
I am confused why some people’s replies in this post keep urging other posters to stay on topic when that is exactly what 99% of the replies in this post are about. I am even more confused by those who post that the Rogue DPS is not really an issue but we should address more specific issues with the class such as “poison scaling, cycle disruption, expose armor, and so forth”. That’s funny, I’m pretty sure those “more specific issues” are directly related and completely dependent to a Rogue’s DPS.
I have been another silent party to this site, reading here and using invaluable information posted here for the last 2 years. This site has been my reference point for Rogue DPS and all things related. This post and what many have said in it have urged me to join so I could reply. The actual state of the Rogue urges me further. What peaks my motivation is some of the ludicrous replies from some of the most respected Rogues associated with Elitist Jerks.
Just to be clear, I am replying to this post, titled “State of Rogues” by jilanea. If you aren’t sure what you should be addressing in this thread I urge you to read her opener.
Bottom line: A Rogues #1 utility and function in a raid is to provide superior melee damage and we are now surpassed by several other melee classes that provide additional utilities that benefit the raid in addition to their now superior damage over the Rogue.
I have not seen anyone effectively answer the now so often asked question, “Why bring a Rogue to my raid?” Without calling out anyone here I will say that you, and everyone else here have not effectively answered this question because you cannot.
I would not bring a Rogue unless they were a friend of mine or another raid member. Cat Druids, Ret Pallys, Fury Warriors and DKs, all equally geared (some even less so) have out DPS’d me on most heroic Naxx boss fights as well as overall raid. I have seen several WWS parses in several other similar posts that corroborate my claim. Now, I know some of you who are jaded may say that it is because I am a bad Rogue. Let me tell you that I am near perfect on my move rotations, which include all known consumables and never letting Slice drop.
The “wait and see” we will scale well notion is also ridiculous. That Cat Druid who is almost identically geared as I am (besides weapons of course), even having slightly better items should be doing anywhere from 500 to 1500 more DPS on most boss fights than me? That Ret Pally who is slightly less geared than I am should be doing anywhere from –50 to +800 DPS compared to me on the same boss fights? Last time I checked, Druids are a utility class who can tank, heal and DPS over the course of a raid and that is what they do. They are designed to be good at a lot but not superior at one. They also have very useful, clearly negligible raid buffs. Also, last time I checked, Pallys wore plate, offered very useful, clearly negligible raid buffs and can also swap gear in a pinch and off-heal, off-tank.
Those here who say we have other valid uses in a raid such as raid buffs and even viable CC and AoE like the other classes are being flat-out ridiculous. Point the finger at those who share my sentiments and say we are just whining, complaining and are just plain bad Rogues so that you can satisfy your inferiority complex. That type of thinking makes me wonder if you are the bad Rogue now. I read all replies in this thread and if you think the Rogues’ DPS is on par with other DPS classes, you are clearly the extreme minority in the Rogue community.
I refuse to exploit a bug to do what I should be doing without one. Rogues are made to do superior melee damage and we no longer do, regardless of what buffs we offer, poisons we use, move rotations we follow, how we are spec’d and gear we are able to acquire because we have friends willing to bring us along. A leather-wearer put in harms way dual wielding sharp objects ought to get more respect than some of you give.
Now, go and raid with those other DPS classes you say we are on par with because they are clearly the reason you look through foggy glasses. Better yet, try raiding with better players of those other DPS classes and then come and talk.
Now it’s your turn to call me “bad” because I hurt your feelings with the truth.
I would not bring a Rogue unless they were a friend of mine or another raid member. Cat Druids, Ret Pallys, Fury Warriors and DKs, all equally geared (some even less so) have out DPS’d me on most heroic Naxx boss fights as well as overall raid. I have seen several WWS parses in several other similar posts that corroborate my claim. Now, I know some of you who are jaded may say that it is because I am a bad Rogue. Let me tell you that I am near perfect on my move rotations, which include all known consumables and never letting Slice drop.
The “wait and see” we will scale well notion is also ridiculous. That Cat Druid who is almost identically geared as I am (besides weapons of course), even having slightly better items should be doing anywhere from 500 to 1500 more DPS on most boss fights than me? That Ret Pally who is slightly less geared than I am should be doing anywhere from –50 to +800 DPS compared to me on the same boss fights?
No offense, but making all of these claims and not posting a single WWS isn't really doing a whole lot for me. Hell, you didn't even put numbers to any of it. If the Druid is doing 3500 and you're doing 3k, he's winning because you're bad. You haven't given any evidence to the contrary, other than your (essentially worthless) word. You only have 7 raid achievements for god's sake -- your credibility is severely lacking.
Rogues are not perfect, but we're not even close to the chicken-little dire straights you seem to be pushing.
Okay, looks like this thread stopped being constructive a few posts ago. :-/
EDIT: Saw ban message, and would like to say how fucking useless the person who posted the original message was (and the irony is noted).
And to avoid further irony, I'd like to ask about Rogue PvP. Does anyone have any useful observations about the state of Rogues in this facet of the game (I feel this goes here rather than the PvP forum because it pertains to "The State of Rogues" more than "PvP Discussion")?
I am confused why some people’s replies in this post keep urging other posters to stay on topic when that is exactly what 99% of the replies in this post are about. I am even more confused by those who post that the Rogue DPS is not really an issue but we should address more specific issues with the class such as “poison scaling, cycle disruption, expose armor, and so forth”. That’s funny, I’m pretty sure those “more specific issues” are directly related and completely dependent to a Rogue’s DPS.
I have been another silent party to this site, reading here and using invaluable information posted here for the last 2 years. This site has been my reference point for Rogue DPS and all things related. This post and what many have said in it have urged me to join so I could reply. The actual state of the Rogue urges me further. What peaks my motivation is some of the ludicrous replies from some of the most respected Rogues associated with Elitist Jerks.
Just to be clear, I am replying to this post, titled “State of Rogues” by jilanea. If you aren’t sure what you should be addressing in this thread I urge you to read her opener.
Bottom line: A Rogues #1 utility and function in a raid is to provide superior melee damage and we are now surpassed by several other melee classes that provide additional utilities that benefit the raid in addition to their now superior damage over the Rogue.
I have not seen anyone effectively answer the now so often asked question, “Why bring a Rogue to my raid?” Without calling out anyone here I will say that you, and everyone else here have not effectively answered this question because you cannot.
I would not bring a Rogue unless they were a friend of mine or another raid member. Cat Druids, Ret Pallys, Fury Warriors and DKs, all equally geared (some even less so) have out DPS’d me on most heroic Naxx boss fights as well as overall raid. I have seen several WWS parses in several other similar posts that corroborate my claim. Now, I know some of you who are jaded may say that it is because I am a bad Rogue. Let me tell you that I am near perfect on my move rotations, which include all known consumables and never letting Slice drop.
The “wait and see” we will scale well notion is also ridiculous. That Cat Druid who is almost identically geared as I am (besides weapons of course), even having slightly better items should be doing anywhere from 500 to 1500 more DPS on most boss fights than me? That Ret Pally who is slightly less geared than I am should be doing anywhere from –50 to +800 DPS compared to me on the same boss fights? Last time I checked, Druids are a utility class who can tank, heal and DPS over the course of a raid and that is what they do. They are designed to be good at a lot but not superior at one. They also have very useful, clearly negligible raid buffs. Also, last time I checked, Pallys wore plate, offered very useful, clearly negligible raid buffs and can also swap gear in a pinch and off-heal, off-tank.
Those here who say we have other valid uses in a raid such as raid buffs and even viable CC and AoE like the other classes are being flat-out ridiculous. Point the finger at those who share my sentiments and say we are just whining, complaining and are just plain bad Rogues so that you can satisfy your inferiority complex. That type of thinking makes me wonder if you are the bad Rogue now. I read all replies in this thread and if you think the Rogues’ DPS is on par with other DPS classes, you are clearly the extreme minority in the Rogue community.
I refuse to exploit a bug to do what I should be doing without one. Rogues are made to do superior melee damage and we no longer do, regardless of what buffs we offer, poisons we use, move rotations we follow, how we are spec’d and gear we are able to acquire because we have friends willing to bring us along. A leather-wearer put in harms way dual wielding sharp objects ought to get more respect than some of you give.
Now, go and raid with those other DPS classes you say we are on par with because they are clearly the reason you look through foggy glasses. Better yet, try raiding with better players of those other DPS classes and then come and talk.
Now it’s your turn to call me “bad” because I hurt your feelings with the truth.
I share your sentiments. Blue geard DK's and half geared hunters - druids with a few blues etc.. all beating epic geared rogues in dps. Shame. I've even seen some green geared classes beating out rogues in much much better gear. Is it the 1k dps we are screaming for as Aldriana is rallying against, needed - no! But is a solid dps increased needed, yes. Most certainly. I wouldn't say minor. I do feel like some here are of the mind:
"Eat your shit sandwich. Its tasty. It has nuts - others don't have nuts. Its not very nutritious, or filling but if you need zinc, that nut is the bomb! Don't worry that others are eating lobster and filet mignon. Mr. Joe Shmoe says we scale better and sometime in the future, that shit sandwich is gonna be good. Also, when the stars align just perfectly and you haven't eaten in many days, that shit sandwich is the best!"
My point is. Sure, we have a nice toolbox. And in a pinch, we have a few things to draw from. But the fact of the matter is, every other class has better tools to be used in more circumstances. In other words, we are the jack of all trades, master of none.
In rebuttal to the poster above - you replied exactly how the poster (who you are replying to) said you would. By criticizing and demeaning. You say "where are the wws reports". I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I've seen many of those reports and it seems that when a rogue tops the charts on one boss fight in 20, that is cause for celebration. Like that is 'good'. Are we reading the same reports?
And I want to reiterate - I am not condoning a HUGE dps buff. That is not productive nor fun. But a 'slight' or 'mild' buff is not needed either. I feel a modest boost is needed. We can't even agree on how bad we are.
In short: what we seem to be finding is that the best members of the best nonrogue classes beat the best rogues... but the best rogues beat everyone else. So unless you can get 15 world-class mages, hunters, and fury warriors, it's totally reasonable to bring a good rogue.
Can you elaborate a bit? From what I can catch you mean that "Well best rogues beat all the subpar players so it's ok".
I really can not understand the point you are trying to bring across. Look, the issue is simple: You got this class, which is melee, and is generally, despite all the changes done recently, designed around doing dps only, but it doesn't do enough at the moment. Yes, we understand that we can give 2% "physical buff" which is the weakest raid buff in the game by the way.
Look, for me it's not about gaining my raid spot. I wanna feel like I am playing this well designed game in which things make actual sense and GC seems to disagree with that. Yes we know that guilds will not end up stacking 10 feral druids if they do better dps and add better utility/flexibility for example, but it doesn't make the game look any good with such a weak line in the core design when a class is clearly "better" than the other one.
Rogue class has an inner disadvantage of being melee and as a long time raid leader of a successful raiding guild, I do not remember the last "proper" encounter at which melee had an advantage aside from higher dps. Right now I might go and recruit another rogue, but what the hell does my guild gain by doing so? In sunwell I would answer "higher dps".
Generally that's the whole problem I have with the perspective that designers like GC seem to have: That they can't control top end guilds stacking anyways, so it's ok if classes aren't well balanced, as it doesn't affect the midfield guilds. But that is simply bad design. What if a top rogue wants to play in a top guild and actually wants to contribute as much as the next guy?
PS: Why should we destroy this thread by posting that stuff just because it's allowed (to posters few posts above). =/
Okay, looks like this thread stopped being constructive a few posts ago. :-/
The thread was terrible from the beginning. About half the posts in this thread got infractioned, and while there were some good posts overall, they got overshadowed by the ridiculous amount of awful posts. It was basically a couple people posting reasonable things and the large majority proposing random <insert terrible idea> or beating the dead horse endlessly about how hybrid DPS should be low and how rogues needed a complete overhaul and a 50% damage buff, with a notorious lack of substance or any kind of factual evidence. The derail in the thread was great, as it shows clearly how dumb you look when you whine thoughtlessly.
Also, to dodge an infraction.
Originally Posted by Neske
Remember that most posters here have an excellent knowledge and experience with rogue class, so please start treating us with respect.
1. Piss yourself. You probably already have done this, so proceed to
2. Rip the power cord off one of your trashy light-up reindeer you have in front of your trailer. Yes, the reindeer won't light up anymore; but you won't care in a bit after you
3. Stab the exposed wiring directly into your nuts.
Last edited by Neto- : 12/31/08 at 6:32 PM.
Originally Posted by Aldriana
But while Vulajin is only a pale shadow of my brilliance, he still contributes a fair amount to the community so I'd feel guilty
12/30/08, 7:42 AM
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