Forgive the impertinence of starting a new thread, I'm hoping that the fresh start will generate some more productive traffic. So, to make things absolutely clear: this thread is not to be used to talk about overall rogue DPS. Rather, this thread is for discussion of the other issues raised in the now-locked thread. Excessive wishlisting is a bad thing, but I don't think it's possible to properly discuss problems without also addressing potential solutions and their ramifications. To avoid the "wishlisting" problem, solutions should be couched in generic terms rather than specifics. e.g. "A better way to refresh Expose Armor" is OK, while "We should have a new talent called X, costing Y energy, with a cooldown of Z seconds" is getting pointless.

I think the identified problems fall into three general categories.

1) Scaling issues
* Instant poison scales faster than Deadly, meaning that we are close to the point at which it makes sense for even Mutilate rogues to drop Deadly poison. This will be exacerbated as AP and crit scale with gear, leading to IP outscaling Deadly, and proportionally more Envenom finishers (= less Deadly uptime). Example solutions are reasonably obvious: either tweaking of the AP coefficients of the poisons, or simply appropriate glyphs for Envenom and/or Deadly Poison.

* Rogues scale with raid buffs and/or gear to a greater degree than other classes. This has not been confirmed by detailed modelling, and it would be really nice to see some effort directed towards these ends. However, I find it quite informative that (by and large) the rogues saying our DPS is fine are among the best geared, while those at the lower end of the gear scale are having more problems. Is this a thresholding issue? That is, it may be that certain minimum amounts of hit/crit are necessary to allow rogue builds to function effectively, thus meaning that our scaling at the low end is accelerated.

Intuitively this makes a lot of sense - the small amount of scaling analysis that has been done indicates that we do scale comparably to other classes at higher gear levels. There are three effects that mean our scaling may be faster at lower gear levels. It all boils down to the EP ranking of different stats, which are as follows:

Hit (below yellow cap) > expertise (below cap) > hit (below poison cap) > Agility/AP > crit > haste > AP

Note that the top three stats in the list all have caps associated with them. This is of course obvious - uncapped stats should always scale worse than capped ones. However, what this means is that at teh lower end of the gear curve, before we cap our stats, each itemisation point buys us more DPS than it does at higher gear levels. That means that if we are tuned appropriately for high gear levels, we will be underpowered at lower gear levels, since we have not yet taken advantage of the faster scaling that comes from stats below cap.

In addition to the effect of capping stats, there is also a threshold effect of crit for Mutilate - you need enough crit to be sure of having sufficient combo points to complete a 4+r / 4+n cycle within the duration of a 4 point S'n'D. At lower crit levels it is easy to get unlucky streaks that lead to S'n'D drops or even HfB drops, which respectively cost 25 or 90 energy (plus combo points in the case of S'n'D). This can of course be put down to simply bad play, but my suspicion is that it's easier to play well when you have a high enough crit rate.


2) Itemisation issues
* The biggest one is weapon speed. All Mutilate rogues want 2 [Webbed Death], as do all HaT rogues, and even a fist/dagger Combat rogue wants one as well. We are in the same situation we were with combat offhands (and hunters were with ranged weapons), where weapon speed is more important than stats or even ilvl. This is primarily due to the newly-buffed poison damage, and secondarily due to talents like focused attacks and combat potency.

* Hit rating at lower gear levels (= blues / Heroic). Yes, everyone complains about this, and it's easy to laugh at the terribads who mistake caps for goals. However, as has been shown by Aldriana's own analysis, expertise, and hit below the yellow cap are indeed better than any other stat. I'm not asking for fully optimised gear at every level, but if the non-raid / Heroic gear for other classes is more optimised than rogue gear, this could be part of the problem.

3) Opportunity costs of our buffs
* Expose Armor is the big one. A way of maintaining it that doesn't require a full 5 point finisher is desperately needed for this to be desirable in any content. There's any number of ways this could be done - e.g. tying it to some other finisher in the manner of Cut to the Chase, or simply reducing the energy cost of it if used on a target that is already Exposed.

* Other buffs are less obviously broken - we are the best choice for dispelling Frenzy and for Savage Combat. Mind-Numbing poison cost appears to be comparable to the warlock cost, although it's so rarely useful in raids that this seems fairly irrelevant.

* Tricks of the Trade. Not a lot to say here except that our personal DPS should not be balanced on the assumption that we are trading Tricks with another rogue. In that situation it would always be better to Tricks a member of another class.

First, a warning from the moderators (and I know Songster said it, but I want to be very clear about this): if this starts going down the road of the other thread - people complaining about rogue DPS, or overall balance, or overall utility, or whatever, no mercy will be shown. Infractions will be fast and furious. This is your one and only warning.

Now, with that out of the way, lets get down to business.

1) I'm not sure if we can reach any real conclusions about the overall scaling of the class with what we know, partly because scaling is always restricted by what we have access to - until we start seeing Ulduar items, I don't think we can really project what DPS is going to look like by end-Ulduar. However, I do think it's the case that Mutilate has a bit more of an implicit gear threshhold that is higher than Combat; while one can do viable Combat DPS almost no matter how bad your gear is, if you don't have a reasonable amount of expertise, you'll start missing finishers and your cycles will fall apart. If you don't have enough crit, you'll wind up with too many 2-finisher cycles and your cycles will fall apart. If you don't have enough hit and haste, your poisons won't restack fast enough for good Envenoms. And so on. But I'm not sure that's a scaling issue per se - I think it's more of a "you must be this tall" (sorry gnomes) situation. If you're below the line, it doesn't work; if you're near the line, it sort of works; and if you're above the line, it works really well. However, once you're above that line, it's not clear to me that your further scaling is going to be notably good or not; it's also worth noting that there is an implicit diminishing returns on crit as it pertains to SF procs, so there is some reason to believe our scaling will slow down at least slightly. But in terms of scaling versus other classes - I don't think we really know enough to say for certain.

Now, in terms of the specific issue of poisons: first, this is somewhat tied to the second point about weapon speed - were fast weapons not so good anyway, IP wouldn't be so strong; but they are, so it is. Fundamentally, the problem is twofold; first, IP scales with Hit, Haste, and Crit in addition to AP, while DP scales with AP alone. The secondary problem is that with end-Naxx hit/haste/crit rates, IP is *already* scaling faster with AP than DP does. Combine these, and there's really no way around it - DP needs to do more damage, and/or scale better. It seems to me that some tuning of the AP-scaling factor might be in order, but there are probably other ways to make it work.

2) There doesn't seem to be a lot to say here. Either Blizzard needs to rework how Focused Attacks and/or Poisons work, or they need to give us fast daggers.

3) I think there's an additional problem beyond what's noted in that poison application hurts Mutilate rogues a lot more than Combat rogues - with the current IP/DP setup for Mutilate, switching out either poison costs a *lot* of damage - either use lose the Envenom/IP interaction, or you lose the ability to Envenom entirely - either way, it's a lot more damage than the pure poison switch - which is all Combat has to pay. In fact, Combat gets the healing debuff for free, while Mutilate would pay a nontrivial amount of damage to get it. What this means is that if the two specs did comparable damage, Combat would be strictly superior due to the much easier application of debuffs. Hence, it would be good if the poison-style debuffs could somehow be made more accessible to Mutilate rogues.

On the Tricks front - I'm not sure there's a real difference between balancing our DPS with or without Tricks. Tricks only makes about 100 DPS difference, meaning that in practice one will have a hard time telling which way it's balanced without a large-scale statistical analysis of WWS parses. With week-to-week fluxuations being what they are, I suspect no guild would be able to conclusively tell whether you're averaging 50 DPS more or 50 DPS less than a given other individual - and to the extent that they can, it's unclear to me how many guilds would care.

I'd now like to propose a solution that speaks to all 3 of these problems. It's not a total solution to any of them, mind you, but it would help on all 3 fronts. The proposal is this: provide a means, either via glyph or talent, that one can Envenom without dropping Deadly Poison stacks. This accomplishes a couple of things.

First, it makes Envenom somewhat stronger relative to Eviscerate, particularly for Mutilate builds. As such, the issue where IP/Evis catches up with DP/Envenom would at the very least be postponed.

Second, it makes weapon speed less important for whichever weapon is doing Deadly Poison. While Focused Attacks would still favor fast weapons, the need to quickly restack Deadly Poison would be gone; as such, slower weapons would be more viable. At the very least, I'm reasonably confident that Sinister Revenge would pass Webbed Death for the MH.

Finally, it allows Mutilate rogues to keep 100% uptime on Master Poisoner, making them as viable a source of this buff as a ret paladin or elemental shaman, as opposed to the current situation where uptime is rather less than that.

I'm not saying it's a solution totally without problems... but I do think it would help at least somewhat.

A couple things worth mentinoning:

1. Hunger for Blood

We lose 60 energy every time Hunger for Blood drops. The punishment for letting it drop is a little out of place here, and so is the gain of playing perfectly -- with absolutely perfect play, for five minutes, you're only spending 30 energy less than someone who refreshes it at 27~ seconds, which is a lot less risky than refreshing it at 29.9. Sure, there is a gain in refreshing it as late as possible, but if you let it drop once while refreshing it at 29.9 seconds, it will take the guy refreshing at 27 seconds almost 10 minutes to lose as much energy as you, who played perfectly but let it drop one time, in 600 seconds. Not only that, there are fights where it simply isn't under your control - most notably fights with random mechanics that immobilize/stun you. I like the mechanic and the management necessary, but it is too punitive.

2. Cut to the Chase

Much like Hunger for Blood, except less harmful, but about as annoying. I don't think having Cut to the Chase start a Slice and Dice even if you don't already have one running would be unreasonable, as much as it wouldn't have a noticeable effect in our stationary boss DPS, it would make trash DPS and fights where you re-engage combat frequently less obnoxious.

3. Bloodlust synergy and scaling

As a Mutilate rogue, a big part of our damage isn't affected directly by haste, such as yellow attacks. While poisons are, and we do have Focused Attacks, the increase in our energy regen isn't nearly enough to increase our yellow damage by 30%, unlike a caster who has the cast time of his main nuke reduced by 30%. Also, certain classes have talents/abilities that increase their damage when the boss is below 35%/20% health, which, if coupled with Bloodlust, will inflate their damage during that time of the fight even more. Rogues, currently, would be better, in a direct comparison with other classes DPS, if no Bloodlust is present.

4. Murder

Before Wrath of the Lich King, Murder wasn't really a big deal, as it was only 2% increased damage and Combat rogues had it anyway. Now, Murder is 4% (actually more than that, as it is applied twice on crits), and considering that our DPS basically doubled from The Burning Crusade, the damage gained is a lot more noticeable. Murder is one of the strongest talents per-point in the Assassination tree, but it is also very situational. I'm not sure if our DPS is balanced around having Murder or not, but if it is, then changing it to a flat 4% increase wouldn't be unreasonable; if it is not, then perhaps it should be changed to something else, as 4% increase in damage is too significant and would ultimately make us 4% above our expected output on those specific circumstances and that could cause imbalance in the future.

Just to chime in a bit on some things.

About itemization issues. I think part of the problem is that many view the items gained from Naxx/OS/EoE as top end raid gear; I really don't think it's meant to be. I view the current raid gear in the same way I viewed the badge gear that came out at the same time as T6 and later Sunwell. Like the badge gear, Naxx gear is really easy to obtain, helps get new raiders a leg up on where they should be and honestly isn't optimized for top end damage. Like the badge gear there are some gems in there but most have not had their stat points spent in the best way.

Does that hurt rogues more than other classes? Maybe, I'm not sure. With clothies all sharing the same gear now I don't know that we can make that assumption. The Warlocks and Mages with +spirit gear have their own opinions about poor optimization.

About Aldriana's idea for Envenom, I rather liked his previous idea about bumping the damage or scaling of DP through either a buff or glyph. Obviously this makes any downtime for DP more detrimental and doesn't do anything to resolve the need for faster weapons but it affects rogues of all specs and not just Mutilate. Of course there is potential for problems with anything that gets done.

I will say this though, if anything is ever done to buff/nerf rogue damage it should be done through poisons or poison mechanics which are unique to our class. Anything done to poisons will have little or no affect on other classes. Changing things like haste rating conversions, armor pen conversions, glancing blows, miss rates, etc will affect a lot more than just us.

Hopefully the problem solving by the more adept minds here won't be wholly concentrated on the Assassination tree,

When I compare our class now, to the past, and in relation to other classes evolution through the expansions, I see a few glaring issues, that often have been dealt with, but still plague rogues.

Poisons. In the past, temporary weapon buffs, like poisons, sharpening/weight stones, even oils, were all non significant buffs. In the original naxx 40, a warrior gained comparable dps using sharpening stones as we did using poisons. Now, there arent many weapon enchants, and things like poisons have been buffed significantly. However, they havent learned from the past, and magnified the desparity caused by weapon speeds. In fact, with making our poison contribute an overall higher percentage to our damage than before, its magnified. It really feels like its a normalization candidate, and this should have been obvious since beta, when Vul and others were arguing for it, with blizzard lending a deaf ear.

Execute. In WoW retail, warriors had execute. Its what pulled them ahead of other classes on fights like patchwerk. The longer you stay in execute range, the higher overall damage warriors did. In fact, warrior dps while going up at the end of naxx, was a lower overall percentage of the boss's hp as we started killing patch faster and faster, due to not sitting at execute range as long. Along come tbc, then wrath, and now multiple classes have an execute like attack/modifier/skill. Warlocks have their drain soul spell do 400% dmg on targets below 20%, as well as another execute like buff. Mages have their burndown, paladins have their hammer, etc etc etc. Rogues have been given 2 talents with an execute like modifier. Dirty deeds in sub, and Prey on the Week in combat. Prey on the week is a tier 10 talent, modifying only critical strike damage, and Sub is not accessible to a raid build other than a sub build, which is either a sub par hat build, or an exploited high dps hat build group. Not that we need another pvp useable finisher type move, just pve raid oriented.

Utility. This isnt a rant or whine in any way, the amount of utility we bring now, especially compared to pre wrath, is incredible, however, the price is pretty high. Blizzard gives us an equivelant armor reduction to sunder, and makes us spend 5 combo points to maintain it. Warriors let it roll, and sunder once before it fades to refresh the debuff, while we have to redo the debuff. If your assasination, that means paying attention to hfb, snd, rupture, and expose timers, as well as pay attention to energy vs dp stacks on the target, to maximize dmg. A warlock skips curse of agony to curse of tongues, and can do it in the middle of a fight. A rogue forgoes a dmg poison for mind numbing for a whole fight at a time. Some of our utility just is too costly to effectively use.
In fact, that brings up rupture refreshing as well. We cant overwrite a lower duration higher damage rupture with a higher duration lower damage rupture. Meaning that 5 point rupture with 4 seconds left put on with 6000 ap due to your berserking buff cant be overwritten by a 16 second 5500 ap rupture.

In regards to the DP or envenom glyph, I have been a proponent for this for a while, but I would also like to see a couple more assasination oriented glyphs.

PotW is NOT an execute like modifier. I don't know why people keep saying that. It works 100% of the fight, and the drawback it has is meant to balance it in PvP, as it would otherwise completly neglate the effect of a near cap resilience gear.

I think I speak for many when I say I would love to see this implemented, most preferably in a glyph format. From an assassination perspective, this also alleviates the "floating" major glyph issue in that we only receive substantial benefit from 2 of the majors currently in-game.

While I like the idea of charge-less Envenoms, it might have PvP implications. I don't really know if people would use it but just throwing it out there. I think if anything, Blizz might just create an increased DP application glyph whether passive or to the increased proc from using Envenom itself. It probably wouldn't fix the discrepancy between weapon speeds though. The glyph could also just have the effect of reducing the charge cost by one so that one DP stack always remains on the target.

I agree that it'd be nice to have better Bloodlust synergy, even if it's just a CD to blow.

On the subject of utilities, I agree with most of the issues. I also wish ToT had a larger range for a wider variety of targets. Although this limitation may be intentional. I don't have a second rogue to feed and usually end up feeding a lock.

Adding a range extension on Tricks to Dirty Tricks would add something useful to filler talents in a 7/51/13 combat spec, and it's not enough of a neccesity that mutilate rogues would miss it much.

Well, I wouldn't think increasing the base range of Tricks really would be problematic from a balance standpoint. Midirect has a 100 yd range, so given that there's the restriction of needing to actually be in melee range to proc the actual tricks effect, I don't really see a design reason to not increase the range substantially.

As for the Sinister Revenge vs. Webbed Death in the MH, according to Vulajin's sheet with best-in-slot gear, SR is already ~20 DPS higher than WD. But certainly, if DP didn't drop with Envenom, that gap would widen.

Unless I am missing something completely obvious, double instant+evis is already better and is better even at low gear levels if your weapons are sufficiently fast(double librarians or webbed death). The roguecraft spreadsheet agrees with this as well if you change the mutilate damage calculation to assume a poison on the target for the 50% bonus mutilate damage instead of checking your weapons for wound/deadly(which would be a pretty safe assumption to make in a 25man situation since you most likely have at least a hunter in the raid).

If poisons were changed to a "this effect cannot occur more than once every xx seconds" and damage was adjusted accordingly, that would open up a lot more weapon options for rogues. Same treatment would be necessary for combat potency and focused attacks as well.

Although it would give Rogues another timer to monitor, I have always liked the idea of making Expose Armor remove X armor regardless of Combo Points, and have the Combo Points determine the duration of the debuff. In this way, Expose Armor no longer requires all 5 points to be viable (as none of our other finishers do). With talents like Ruthlessness and Expose Armor's low (or below zero) energy cost, it would be easier to maintain in an environment without Sunder Armor. All of our other time-based finishers scale their duration based on number of Combo Points; changing Expose Armor to this mechanic seems logical.

That doesn't really fix the issue that is maintaining it, and it could possibly unbalance PvP; applying EA isn't a problem, keeping it up the entire fight is.

Anyways, we're getting dangerously close to turning this thread into a wishlist thread, and some of the suggestions aren't really reasonable. Just posting an idea isn't the best approach.

With that said, as an issue with the class pointed out in the first few posts is Bloodlust synergy, tweaking Tricks of the Trade, Focused Attacks and Combat Potency could improve us in that area. Going up 10% crit is just barely 0.6 energy per second increase on my spreadsheet for Focused Attacks, and 10% hit is about 0.2 energy per second increase for Combat Potency, and 10% haste is about 0.2 energy per second increase for either. So, they seem to scale rather poorly to actually increase our white:yellow ratio during Bloodlust to a comparable to caster's amount.

Also, about glyphs, we have to be very careful here - if you make the Envenom that doesn't remove DP stacks a glyph, that would make Eviscerate pretty much useless as Envenom ignores armor and benefits from 13% raid debuff. And another thing: as much as it is interesting to add glyphs, we're at the first patch of the expansion. We have 3.1, 3.2 and 3.3 to go, and most of our glyphs, currently, aren't *that* good, as they add around 50 or so DPS. I'd be surprised if Blizzard doesn't already have some glyphs planned, so using them as "fixes" isn't really a good idea.

On Deadly Poison and scaling, there are, obviously, two approaches: make DP more desirable, or make Envenom more desirable. I'm not too keen on adapting it to accommodate for slower weapons, as they would still be less-optimal anyway and Blizzard is, of course, aware of that. Perhaps something that increases the Envenom increased application buff, or increase the extra chance of applying poisons would fit nicely. I also don't agree with the Master Poisoner argument, as in a 25man raid, you will definitely have someone else who can take care of it and will have it in their standard raid spec (Paladins). If it could be made into something more interesting, like Savage Combat, I'd be more inclined to that.

You're missing the fact that Aldriana was talking about his suggestion here, which is Envenom no longer consuming DP stacks. That would make DP/IP still be the best choice, at least for a while.

Couple things I noticed. First off, if you are combat you want a Hailstorm offhand... not a Webbed death. Calamity+Hailstorm is best in slot for combat, as far as I know according to Vulaj's Spreadsheet. Also, according to that same spreadsheet, Sinister Revenge+Webbed Death is actually a bit superior to two Webbed Deaths.


As for rogues scaling best with gear and buffs, I have not seen anything to back this up. I have yet to notice rogues topping charts on a cross section of WWS from different guilds. Mostly I see them in the top 10 under hunters, warriors, mages ect... If someone could provide some evidence that rogues with best in slot gear and fully 25man raid buffed are doing top DPS, I would be highly interested.

And as for IP scaling better... regardless of if IP is more dmg than DP alone, without DP you can not Evenom and thus lose alot of DPS. So I am not sure what your point is here, unless it is just that DP should be doing more because we are forced to use it.

I disagree and still believe that weapons/gear are poorly itemized on purpose. I'm pretty sure this is what Ghostcrawler is saying in this recent post.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Haste and Me

Simple solution (ignoring the coding, of course) for expose armor:

Make it apply X sunder stacks, where X is the number of CPs spent, and refresh the sunder timer. This would allow it to work w/ warrior tanks and renew the debuff w/o having to use a full 5 CPs. I suspect there are some pvp implications (easier to keep up armor debuffs, rogue+warrior combos can instantly get to a full armor debuff), but it seems like a small perturbation on that front.

As for DP scaling, I'm not terribly fussed about using IP/evis vs DP/envenom in a 25 man raid. However, if IP/evis is better and we are tuned around that, then our performance in 5 and 10 man setting could suffer. In smaller raid sizes, it's reasonable that there would not be a hunter or another rogue providing the poisoning for mutilate. Some potential solutions include putting crit in the DP damage equation directly (i.e., the ticks don't crit, but crit contributes like AP to the tick damage) and making haste affect the tick timer.

My take on the 3 points described above:

1) We can't really say that rogues will ultimately scale better or worse than other classes. The fact is that the developer team has stated many times during the beta that they will try to bring every class to even ground when it comes to scaling, so I would not be very surprised if gear scaling wouldn't ultimately make a big difference between the different classes or even spec's.

When it comes to raid buffs; While it is true that we gain slightly more from raid buffs at the moment, we should also remember that this is the start of the expansion and buffs play a more important role. Obviously the value of raid buffs will always diminish over time, as gear improves. While something like Kings or flat +percent damage will keep their core values, some other buffs will get weaker and weaker over time, and deliever a lower percent of overall dps.


2) On subject of itemization, I personally think the core elements of the game should not be changed. It "should be" interesting to get bigger mutilates. On the other hand, it is not good for the game to give too much value to a certain weapon speed. No matter how you handle that, you will have slow daggers drop, which people will ignore, or hesitate to take. Therefor I think they should try to solve the issue with fast weapons delievering higher dps due to combination of secondary factors.

Another potential problem with itemization is expertise. I don't think having combat rogues sit on 10 more expertise (pretty big chunk) allows for good itemization of rogue pieces. You will somehow have too much or too little expertise on your top tier items (sunwell system with just 1 item per slot comes to mind). I would welcome a change to expertise talent to address that.

3) I personally do not see expose armor to be a big problem. We will not use expose armor frequnetly in 25 man raids as long as it is a finisher and even if it wasn't, rage and mana system are simply more forgiving when it comes to applying debuffs, compared to a energy system. That's one of the reasons why rogues shouldn't end up as a debuff class with active abilities. The mechanism just doesn't fit well with energy.

This problem is somehow fixed objectively for Deathknights, precisely by giving them a second pool of resources, independant of the main pool. As long as energy system is in place, you will not be able to make a class increase the cooldown of their abilities for the sake of debuffs, without hurting the personal dps, especially if the debuffs are virtually free for the next class.

The Paladin version addresses that issue by you always get 3%, but if it is one of the enemy types you get another 3%. Murder could be like that (Always 2% and another 2% on those types may be fine).

I feel that finisher is simply a bad way to apply something like an armor debuff, especially one whose power instead of duration scales with combo points. A 30 second debuff timer is hard to weave in cycles on most real boss fights that aren't simple tank and spanks. In my opinion, a stacking poison would be a much better way to handle it, one which would also be worthwhile on trash and adds and help rogue dps in small groups.

The only real issue I see with this is that it would punish Mutilate more than Combat, but perhaps Mutilate needs these drawbacks to justify its higher single target dps in ideal conditions.

I was just thinking about this thread and I came up with an idea to throw out there.

What if Envenom allowed you to use it without any deadly poison on the target (at the one CP damage level) and also did not consume all of the stacks of Deadly Poison on the target?
I'm thinking of an total combo points minus one reduction. (eg at 5 cps, it would use 4 stacks)

Pros:
-This would allow 0 stack envenoms to gain the poison application buff which would allow for a modest dps buff at higher gear levels where all three main specs are able to produce a fairly comfortable energy/cp generation and where scaling tends to really become an issue

-It would insure that our MP debuff doesn't drop off for Assasination

-It would reduce the value of two fast daggers as the insurance aspect of having a fast dagger for deadly poison application would be reduced thus allowing for a little more flexibility in gearing options

Cons:

-I'm not a programmer, this might be difficult or impossible to code. Unless they broke Envenom into two results, one being the poison application buff (independent of DP stacks) and the second being the amount of damage done (still dependant on Stacks) and even then that might be impossible
-The PvP repercussions of leaving a DoT on the target after an Envenom might be large (I don't PvP much to be honest, but in my limited experience I rarely get to Envenom/DP anyway. But again, I'm not a guru) as well as the repercussions of being able to proc posions more often

Thoughts?

So we can use double IP and still Envenom and basically make Envenom better for all specs (not to mention it would probably trump Rupture since you'd gain 15% application increase on both Instant Poisons)? Sounds like a great idea!

Seriously, if you're going to wishlist, at least post something reasonable.

To clarify: the point of this thread isn't to figure out fixes for everything and discuss the viability or not of our ideas. The point of the thread is figuring out what the issues with the class are and what possible directions could be taken to amend that, and not wishlist solutions, as that would be rather desultory. Please do correct me if I am wrong here.

Has it always worked like that, or they changed it to that? That wouldn't solve the issue entirely but it would be a lot better than what we have now.