SimulationCraft for Rogues - Page 2

dedmonwakeen · 01/23/09, 11:28 PM

Deleted out-dated contents....

• Aldriana · 01/24/09, 12:14 AM

Well, you appear to be using a MH fist with Mutilate, which isn't going to work too well. Try rerunning the Mutilate numbers with a 1.4 dagger MH and see if you get something more plausible.

DSmith13 · 01/24/09, 12:20 AM

Also, you have MH deadly, OH instant. As of 3.0.8, it should be MH instant (and faster weapon) OH deadly.

PessimiStick · 01/24/09, 12:55 AM

In addition to Aldriana's comment (and that's a big one, heh), refreshing HfB at 5 seconds is pretty sloppy and worse than any good player would be doing. Also, you should be able to cut the CP used on Slice and Dice in the combat actions list to 4.

If I'm reading that output correctly, the White damage component of your Combat set seems to be a bit low compared to in-game results. I believe this is a pretty typical breakdown for something like PW: Wow Web Stats Wow Web Stats Wow Web Stats

dedmonwakeen · 01/24/09, 1:11 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Well, you appear to be using a MH fist with Mutilate, which isn't going to work too well. Try rerunning the Mutilate numbers with a 1.4 dagger MH and see if you get something more plausible.

Ah... That's what I get for reusing the same Armory profile in another talent spec......

Originally Posted by PessimiStick

In addition to Aldriana's comment (and that's a big one, heh), refreshing HfB at 5 seconds is pretty sloppy and worse than any good player would be doing. Also, you should be able to cut the CP used on Slice and Dice in the combat actions list to 4.

If I'm reading that output correctly, the White damage component of your Combat set seems to be a bit low compared to in-game results. I believe this is a pretty typical breakdown for something like PW: Wow Web Stats Wow Web Stats Wow Web Stats

Perfect, thanks! I'll examine the WWS in detail.

Incoming EDIT of results post......

PessimiStick · 01/24/09, 1:30 AM

Can you explain the rupture output to me? For both specs I would expect similar numbers since the only real difference is the AP from Savage Combat and Find Weakness from Mut, yet the numbers in that row are very different for each spec.

What kind of in-game stats does that gear equate to? I don't have any spreadsheets on this machine so I can't easily compare the stats I'm getting from my own gear. I think it's pretty similar to what the rogues in my guild have though, so assuming that your data is based on as long of a duration as it looks like, the combat number seems to be getting close to what I'd expect from the game.

Also, the Evisc numbers seem a bit high, and Envenom very low, again assuming I'm reading the output correctly.

• Aldriana · 01/24/09, 3:02 AM

Looks to me like you're getting too much yellow damage relative to the amount of white damage for Mutilate, and your Relentless Strikes regen seems high relative to the Focused Attacks regen - typically my Relentless Strikes regen is not significantly higher than my Focused Attacks Regen (within 10%, say). So just as an off-the-cuff guess: are you giving Relentless Strikes regen for both the Envenom and the SnD for a CttC Envenom? As it should apply only once in that case.

dedmonwakeen · 01/24/09, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by PessimiStick

Can you explain the rupture output to me? For both specs I would expect similar numbers since the only real difference is the AP from Savage Combat and Find Weakness from Mut, yet the numbers in that row are very different for each spec.

What kind of in-game stats does that gear equate to?

Also, the Evisc numbers seem a bit high, and Envenom very low, again assuming I'm reading the output correctly.

The gear_xxx values represent the "green mouse-over" numbers on your character sheet..... essentially, the contributions from gear alone excluding base values and talents.

The Rupture output was bugged..... but the real difference was that the Combat Rogue was waiting for a 5pt Rupture and the Assassination Rogue was going at 4pt. I've changed the Combat Rogue to trigger Rupture/Evis at 4ps and the damage seems more in line.

Well.... At least the Ruptures and Evis/Envenoms seem in line...... but the Assassination Rogue is hitting is triggering Envenom every 5.7sec while the Combat Rogue is hitting Evis every 12.0sec.

The Combo-pt generation seems to weigh too far in favor of the Assassination Rogue: Every 0.9sec vs 1.5sec. That just doesn't seem right.....

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Looks to me like you're getting too much yellow damage relative to the amount of white damage for Mutilate, and your Relentless Strikes regen seems high relative to the Focused Attacks regen - typically my Relentless Strikes regen is not significantly higher than my Focused Attacks Regen (within 10%, say). So just as an off-the-cuff guess: are you giving Relentless Strikes regen for both the Envenom and the SnD for a CttC Envenom? As it should apply only once in that case.

I have a feeling that my combo-point generation is to high for Assassination, resulting in far too frequent Envenoms.... resulting in too much gain from Relentless Strikes.

Regarding damage calculation.... Perhaps my core formula is off:

    weapon_speed  = normalize_weapon_speed  ? weapon -> normalized_weapon_speed() : weapon -> swing_time;

    hand_multiplier = ( weapon -> slot == SLOT_OFF_HAND ) ? 0.5 : 1.0;

    power_damage = weapon_speed * direct_power_mod * total_power(); 
    
    direct_dmg  = base_direct_dmg + ( weapon -> damage + power_damage ) * weapon_multiplier * hand_multiplier;
    direct_dmg *= total_dd_multiplier();

"direct_power_mod" defaults to 1.0/14
"base_direct_dmg" is the constant "special" damage associated with some attacks (note that I do not multiply this by the weapon_multiplier)
"total_power" is the total Attack Power from all sources
"total_dd_multiplier" is the total direct-dmg multiplier from all sources (talents, buffs, debuffs, etc)

I use a target armor of 13000, a Sunder debuff of 3925, and a FF debuff of 1260.

Resistance calculation:

double action_t::resistance()
{
  if( ! may_resist ) return 0;

  target_t* t = sim -> target;
  double resist=0;

  double penetration = base_penetration + player_penetration + target_penetration;

  if( school == SCHOOL_BLEED )
  {
    // Bleeds cannot be resisted
  }
  else if( school == SCHOOL_PHYSICAL )
  {
    double adjusted_armor = armor() * ( 1.0 - penetration );

    if( adjusted_armor <= 0 ) return 0;

    double adjusted_level = player -> level + 4.5 * ( player -> level - 59 );

    resist = adjusted_armor / ( adjusted_armor + 400 + 85.0 * adjusted_level );
  }
  else
  {
    double resist_rating = t -> spell_resistance[ school ];

    resist_rating -= penetration;
    if( resist_rating < 0 ) resist_rating = 0;

    resist = resist_rating / ( player -> level * 5.0 );

    if( ! binary )
    {
      int delta_level = t -> level - player -> level;
      if( delta_level > 0 )
      {
        double level_resist = delta_level * 0.02;
        if( level_resist > resist ) resist = level_resist;
      }
    }
  }

  return resist;
}

Results post has been updated.

dedmonwakeen · 01/25/09, 5:50 PM

Deleted out-of-date contents.

koaschten · 01/25/09, 6:51 PM

Rogue_15_51_5:
18.6% : blade_flurry
25.0% : mongoose_oh
47.4% : moongoose_mh
97.4% : savage_combat
86.0% : slice_and_dice

That shouldnt be that low, should it?

dedmonwakeen · 01/25/09, 7:09 PM

Originally Posted by koaschten

That shouldnt be that low, should it?

Hmm....... It appears the AI is letting Slice and Dice fall off before refreshing. I'll add a "refresh_at" option.

chalon · 01/25/09, 7:19 PM

Few notes:
1. Blessing of Might is ~688 AP, due to the Imp. Blessing of Might talent

2. Berserking is a better enchant than Mongoose

3. If you want to look at best-in-slot gear, your gear values are quite low. That probably explains why your overall DPS number is so low. Should just grab the numbers from here: The World of Warcraft Armory

4. A Mutilate rogue shouldn't have any uptime on Savage Combat. Though it is probably safe to assume that someone else in the raid is providing that 2% damage boost.

5. How long was the fight durations? I didn't see that noted anywhere, though I'm probably just missing it.

dedmonwakeen · 01/25/09, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by chalon

Few notes:
1. Blessing of Might is ~688 AP, due to the Imp. Blessing of Might talent

2. Berserking is a better enchant than Mongoose

3. If you want to look at best-in-slot gear, your gear values are quite low. That probably explains why your overall DPS number is so low. Should just grab the numbers from here: The World of Warcraft Armory

4. A Mutilate rogue shouldn't have any uptime on Savage Combat. Though it is probably safe to assume that someone else in the raid is providing that 2% damage boost.

5. How long was the fight durations? I didn't see that noted anywhere, though I'm probably just missing it.

1. Updated Blessing of Might

2. Added support for Berserking, assume proc rate same as Mongoose

3. I've switched to Aldriana's gear. Since I haven't added support for the melee trinkets yet, I increased the AP by ~400.

4. Fixed the reporting....

Starfox · 01/25/09, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by chalon

5. How long was the fight durations? I didn't see that noted anywhere, though I'm probably just missing it.

If he used his standard raid input, then the fights are around ~280 seconds.
The sim is told to make the fight 300 seconds, so it estimates the health of the mob. This is done by adding up all damage until half of the 300 seconds have passed and assuming that the mob is now at 50% health.
Bloodlust is probably fired up at 35% so that fight are slight less then 300 seconds most of the time.

path411 · 01/26/09, 2:48 AM

I'm not super familiar with SimulationCraft so correct me if I'm wrong.

Maybe I'm missing something, but was wondering:

Under attack stats, both specs have identical AP numbers, even though Savage Combat would increase the AP of the combat rogue by 4% over the mutilate rogue. This also seems to possibly be a problem for the talent Close Quarters Combat, as a combat build would have 2% more crit over a mutilate rogue from having 2 more points in this talent.

The expertise outputs however also seem strange. The mutilate rogue has 6.6 (I'm assuming %). While the combat rogue has 16.6. The 10 expertise gained from the weapon expertise talent is only 2.5%, which if the resulting number is a % would mean the combat rogue should be ending up at 9.1.
(Also a side note, 6.6 seems to be wrong itself, it seems like it is rounding up after taking fraction values of expertise. Where expertise will only improve your dps if it comes out to a flat expertise value.)

Lastly, your combat rogue is running with instant poison instead of wounding.

dedmonwakeen · 01/26/09, 8:07 AM

Originally Posted by path411

Under attack stats, both specs have identical AP numbers, even though Savage Combat would increase the AP of the combat rogue by 4% over the mutilate rogue. This also seems to possibly be a problem for the talent Close Quarters Combat, as a combat build would have 2% more crit over a mutilate rogue from having 2 more points in this talent.

The expertise outputs however also seem strange. The mutilate rogue has 6.6 (I'm assuming %). While the combat rogue has 16.6. The 10 expertise gained from the weapon expertise talent is only 2.5%, which if the resulting number is a % would mean the combat rogue should be ending up at 9.1.
(Also a side note, 6.6 seems to be wrong itself, it seems like it is rounding up after taking fraction values of expertise. Where expertise will only improve your dps if it comes out to a flat expertise value.)

Lastly, your combat rogue is running with instant poison instead of wounding.

1. The AP discrepancy is a reporting issue. The talent Savage Combat should have been included since it is an all-the-time multiplier. CQC is handled as an on-the-fly check since it is weapon dependent.

2. I need to dive into the Expertise issue. I'll comment later today, but this is looking like a real problem. Thanks!!!

3. Hmm...... I have Instant Poison scaling at 0.10 AP and Wound Poison scaling at 0.04 AP.....

• Aldriana · 01/26/09, 8:36 AM

Yes, but IP has a base proc rate of 20%, and wound poison of 50%; so the per-attack scaling is .02 for both, and the relative values of their base damages puts Wound Poison ahead unless you have poison talents - which Mutilate rogues do, but Combat rogues do not.

dedmonwakeen · 01/26/09, 9:15 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Yes, but IP has a base proc rate of 20%, and wound poison of 50%; so the per-attack scaling is .02 for both, and the relative values of their base damages puts Wound Poison ahead unless you have poison talents - which Mutilate rogues do, but Combat rogues do not.

Thanks, Aldriana. This level of detail really helps. I can research individual pieces of Rogue mechanics, but when I zoom out to see the whole picture I get a bit overwhelmed........

I'll update the config files appropriately.

Speaking of which....... Is there a "viable" (even if subpar) Subtlety build you can recommend that I can start testing?

Neto- · 01/26/09, 9:19 AM

As far as Subtlety builds go... I think it isn't practical to try to bother modeling it, since the spec is completely random and dependent on external factors (Honor Among Thieves).

dedmonwakeen · 01/26/09, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Neto-

As far as Subtlety builds go... I think it isn't practical to try to bother modeling it, since the spec is completely random and dependent on external factors (Honor Among Thieves).

SimulationCraft is a multi-player sim so it isn't hard to model Honor Among Thieves...... the problem lies is in putting together a config file because of the impact from party composition. SimulationCraft can return a "result"...... but it won't be a generalized answer.

Loot · 01/26/09, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Neto-

As far as Subtlety builds go... I think it isn't practical to try to bother modeling it, since the spec is completely random and dependent on external factors (Honor Among Thieves).

As much as I hate Hat playstyle, the simulationcraft may be the best way to model it. True, it depends on external crits, but simulationcraft, doing the "real" hits and crits, can pretty much define the best environment for a HaT rogue. For spec... dunno, I raided with something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft before

path411 · 01/26/09, 3:54 PM

The main current limitation of modeling HAT I can see would be that a SimulationCraft for each class in your party would need to be available and working.

dedmonwakeen · 01/26/09, 5:11 PM

Originally Posted by path411

The main current limitation of modeling HAT I can see would be that a SimulationCraft for each class in your party would need to be available and working.

We're about to release an alpha version of Hunter so I'll be testing with:

Combat Rogue
Assassination Rogue
Subtlety Rogue
Survival Hunter
Beastmaster Hunter

I'm working with this quote from GC:

I will add that some players have wondered if Honor Among Thieves is bugged since the cp can occur more often than 1 sec. In this case, the tooltip is just unclear. When Jimmy the Shaman crits, he cannnot "send you" a combo point more often than 1 per sec. But if you have lots of players critting all the time, you can build them up quickly. So Honor is (here it comes) working as intended.

I hope it is still current..... I'm also assuming that non-guardian pets can trigger the effect.

• Vulajin · 01/26/09, 5:19 PM

I hope it is still current..... I'm also assuming that non-guardian pets can trigger the effect.

Both assumptions are correct.

dedmonwakeen · 01/26/09, 7:34 PM

Okay...... My 3xRogue+2xHunter setup seems retarded.....

I'm finding it best for the HAT Rogue to just stinking sit there and wait for combo points...... Sinister Strike and Hemo are just a waste of energy.

Is HAT combo point generation being throttled in any other way than: "One player cannot give more than one combo point per second." ?