SimulationCraft for Rogues - Page 3

chalon · 01/26/09, 7:17 PM

No.

Yeah, you shouldn't SS or Hemo at all. Just keep up SnD, keep up Rupture, then spam Eviscerate.

koaschten · 01/26/09, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Okay...... My 3xRogue+2xHunter setup seems retarded.....

I'm finding it best for the HAT Rogue to just stinking sit there and wait for combo points...... Sinister Strike and Hemo are just a waste of energy.

Is HAT combo point generation being throttled in any other way than: "One player cannot give more than one combo point per second." ?

You just figured out why many rogues dont want to spec HaT even though it might be their highest DPS Spec... but this might get offtopic fast.
And yes, thats the only limitation since they fixed the "1cp per crit per rogue".
I want to give you a thumbs up to the work you have done so far though

dedmonwakeen · 01/26/09, 10:19 PM

Major bug fix in "finisher" mechanics..... Damage distribution starting to look better...... just low.

Assassination Profile

rogue=Rogue_51_13_7
party=2
level=80
talents=http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ef0exoVboIzAo0xV0hZxb
actions=flask,type=endless_rage/food,type=great_feast/apply_poison,main_hand=instant,off_hand=deadly
actions+=/auto_attack/pool_energy/hunger_for_blood,refresh_at=2/slice_and_dice,min_combo_points=3/tricks_of_the_trade,target=Rogue_15_51_5/rupture,min_combo_points=4/envenom,min_combo_points=4/mutilate
gear_strength=0
gear_agility=1030
gear_stamina=950
gear_intellect=0
gear_spirit=0
gear_attack_power=2500
gear_armor_penetration_rating=0
gear_expertise_rating=215
gear_hit_rating=215
gear_crit_rating=675
gear_haste_rating=280
relentless_earthstorm=1
tier7_2pc=1
tier7_4pc=1
main_hand=dagger,dps=156,speed=1.4,enchant=berserking
off_hand=dagger,dps=156,speed=1.4,enchant=berserking
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_might=688
sanctified_retribution=1
leader_of_the_pack=1

Combat Profile

rogue=Rogue_15_51_5
party=2
level=80
talents=http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0eb0xZMgibx0xoru0xRtx
actions=flask,type=endless_rage/food,type=great_feast/apply_poison,main_hand=wound,off_hand=deadly
actions+=/auto_attack/pool_energy/slice_and_dice,min_combo_points=4,refresh_at=5/tricks_of_the_trade,target=Rogue_7_21_43/killing_spree/blade_flurry/rupture,min_combo_points=4/eviscerate,min_combo_points=4/sinister_strike
gear_strength=0
gear_agility=1030
gear_stamina=950
gear_intellect=0
gear_spirit=0
gear_attack_power=2500
gear_armor_penetration_rating=0
gear_expertise_rating=215
gear_hit_rating=215
gear_crit_rating=675
gear_haste_rating=280
# Not fair to use the same stats since Combat Rogue needs less expertise.
# Trade expertise for ivalue-equal amount of attack power
enchant_attack_power=160
enchant_attack_expertise_rating=-80
relentless_earthstorm=1
tier7_2pc=1
tier7_4pc=1
main_hand=fist,dps=156,speed=2.6,enchant=berserking
off_hand=dagger,dps=156,speed=1.4,enchant=berserking
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_might=688
sanctified_retribution=1
leader_of_the_pack=1

Subtlety Profile

rogue=Rogue_7_21_43
party=2
level=80
talents=http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhLZ0xV0x0xoZxbrbhGzdAzqc
actions=flask,type=endless_rage/food,type=great_feast/apply_poison,main_hand=wound,off_hand=deadly
actions+=/auto_attack/pool_energy/slice_and_dice,min_combo_points=4,refresh_at=5/tricks_of_the_trade,target=Rogue_51_13_7/blade_flurry/rupture,min_combo_points=5/eviscerate,min_combo_points=5
gear_strength=0
gear_agility=1030
gear_stamina=950
gear_intellect=0
gear_spirit=0
gear_attack_power=2500
gear_armor_penetration_rating=0
gear_expertise_rating=215
gear_hit_rating=215
gear_crit_rating=675
gear_haste_rating=280
relentless_earthstorm=1
tier7_2pc=1
tier7_4pc=1
main_hand=dagger,dps=156,speed=1.4,enchant=berserking
off_hand=dagger,dps=156,speed=1.4,enchant=berserking
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_might=688
sanctified_retribution=1
leader_of_the_pack=1

Results

Player=Rogue_15_51_5  DPS=3839.7 (Error=+/-6.1 Range=+/-299)  DPR=224.2  RPS=17.1/16.8  (energy)
  Core Stats:  strength=124  agility=1341  stamina=1160  intellect=41  spirit=72  health=15699  mana=0
  Spell Stats:  power=2200  hit=8.2%  crit=14.7%  penetration=0  haste=8.5%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats:  power=4953  hit=6.6%  crit=30.5%  expertise=6.6  penetration=0  haste=8.5%
  Actions:
    deadly_poison         Count=  0.0| 0.0sec  DPE= inf|10%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=nan%  Tick=1134
    eviscerate            Count=  8.0|33.3sec  DPE=4068| 3%  DPET=3254  DPR=116.2  Miss=0.0%  Hit=2492  Crit=6165|7221|42.9%
    melee_main_hand       Count=196.5| 1.4sec  DPE=1519|28%  DPET=1063  DPR= inf  Miss=14.4%  Hit=1169  Crit=2409|2879|47.5%  Glance= 877|24.0%
    melee_off_hand        Count=365.9| 0.8sec  DPE= 614|21%  DPET= 800  DPR= inf  Miss=14.4%  Hit= 473  Crit= 974|1165|47.4%  Glance= 355|24.0%
    rupture               Count= 10.2|26.9sec  DPE=5695| 5%  DPET=4556  DPR=227.8  Miss=0.0%  Tick=834
    sinister_strike       Count=106.1| 2.6sec  DPE=2678|26%  DPET=2142  DPR=70.5  Miss=0.0%  Hit=1339  Crit=3900|4599|52.3%
    wound_poison          Count=144.2| 1.9sec  DPE= 567| 8%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=0.8%  Hit= 572

Player=Rogue_51_13_7  DPS=4489.5 (Error=+/-9.7 Range=+/-463)  DPR=297.5  RPS=15.1/14.8  (energy)
  Core Stats:  strength=124  agility=1341  stamina=1160  intellect=41  spirit=72  health=15699  mana=0
  Spell Stats:  power=2200  hit=8.2%  crit=14.7%  penetration=0  haste=8.5%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats:  power=4793  hit=6.6%  crit=30.5%  expertise=6.6  penetration=0  haste=8.5%
  Actions:
    deadly_poison         Count=  0.0| 0.0sec  DPE= inf|10%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=nan%  Tick=1488
    envenom               Count= 10.7|23.4sec  DPE=6773| 6%  DPET=5415  DPR=193.5  Miss=0.0%  Hit=4602  Crit=9811|13296|41.7%
    instant_poison        Count=118.7| 2.3sec  DPE=1575|15%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=0.8%  Hit=1588
    melee_main_hand       Count=358.4| 0.8sec  DPE= 869|25%  DPET=1109  DPR= inf  Miss=14.5%  Hit= 661  Crit=1417|1706|45.5%  Glance= 496|23.9%
    melee_off_hand        Count=358.4| 0.8sec  DPE= 654|19%  DPET= 834  DPR= inf  Miss=14.3%  Hit= 497  Crit=1064|1281|45.6%  Glance= 372|24.0%
    mutilate              Count= 52.0| 5.5sec  DPE=4306|18%  DPET=3445  DPR=75.6  Miss=0.0%  Hit=3081  Crit=4924|6550|66.5%
    rupture               Count= 13.1|21.5sec  DPE=8086| 8%  DPET=6469  DPR=323.5  Miss=0.0%  Tick=1048

Player=Rogue_7_21_43  DPS=4816.7 (Error=+/-6.8 Range=+/-355)  DPR=304.8  RPS=15.8/15.8  (energy)
  Core Stats:  strength=124  agility=1542  stamina=1160  intellect=41  spirit=72  health=15699  mana=0
  Spell Stats:  power=2200  hit=8.2%  crit=14.7%  penetration=0  haste=8.5%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats:  power=4994  hit=6.6%  crit=32.9%  expertise=6.6  penetration=0  haste=8.5%
  Actions:
    deadly_poison         Count=  0.0| 0.0sec  DPE= inf| 8%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=nan%  Tick=1146
    eviscerate            Count= 80.6| 3.4sec  DPE=5868|35%  DPET=4694  DPR=167.7  Miss=0.0%  Hit=3998  Crit=8246|10849|44.0%
    melee_main_hand       Count=372.4| 0.8sec  DPE= 870|24%  DPET=1152  DPR= inf  Miss=14.5%  Hit= 661  Crit=1362|1647|49.1%  Glance= 496|24.1%
    melee_off_hand        Count=372.4| 0.8sec  DPE= 653|18%  DPET= 865  DPR= inf  Miss=14.4%  Hit= 496  Crit=1022|1236|49.1%  Glance= 372|24.1%
    rupture               Count= 16.2|17.6sec  DPE=7632| 9%  DPET=6106  DPR=305.3  Miss=0.0%  Tick=978
    wound_poison          Count=159.2| 1.8sec  DPE= 571| 7%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=0.8%  Hit= 575

Gains:
    Rogue_7_21_43:
        energy_regen=2022.2
        relentless_strikes=2418.5
    Rogue_15_51_5:
        combat_potency=926.8
        energy_regen=3460.3
        relentless_strikes=362.1
    Rogue_51_13_7:
        energy_regen=2805.9
        focused_attacks=811.1
        relentless_strikes=566.7

Procs:
    Rogue_7_21_43:
        combo_points=690.1|0.4sec
        honor_among_thieves=716.8|0.4sec
    Rogue_15_51_5:
        combo_points=116.9|2.4sec
        ruthlessness=10.8|26.0sec
    Rogue_51_13_7:
        combo_points=148.4|1.9sec
        ruthlessness=14.3|19.7sec
        seal_fate=46.1|6.1sec

Up-Times:
    Rogue_7_21_43:
        23.0% : berserking_mh
        22.9% : berserking_oh
        19.2% : blade_flurry
        99.4% : slice_and_dice
        21.2% : tricks_of_the_trade
    Rogue_15_51_5:
        45.3% : berserking_mh
        24.7% : berserking_oh
        18.6% : blade_flurry
        97.5% : savage_combat
        93.5% : slice_and_dice
        23.0% : tricks_of_the_trade
    Rogue_51_13_7:
        28.8% : berserking_mh
        29.0% : berserking_oh
        20.5% : envenom
        98.4% : hunger_for_blood
        97.6% : slice_and_dice
        20.0% : tricks_of_the_trade

Waiting:
    33.4% : Rogue_7_21_43
    33.5% : Rogue_15_51_5
    53.3% : Rogue_51_13_7

• Aldriana · 01/26/09, 11:41 PM

Something's still wrong in the realm of finishers, at least for Mutilate; Relentless Strikes regen is way low relative to Focused Attacks, and 6% envenom damage seems low as well (~9-10% is more typical). For that matter, yellow damage as a whole is low; you have 44% white and 18% Mutilate, when 38-40% and 22% are more typical for those numbers (at least for me)

Also, I could be reading this wrong, but it looks to me as though Instant and Wound poisons aren't critting, and they should be. Plus, Deadly Poison damage seems high, though that might tie into the finisher thing - fewer Envenoms would mean more DP damage.

path411 · 01/27/09, 12:16 AM

Edit: I just realized something stupid in my post, but I have a different point.

As Aldriana stated, your finishers are very low, especially envenoms, I managed to have 15 envenoms in my last patchwerk, which should be roughly half of the length of the fight in the simcraft. (If I'm correct in remembering you were basing off a 300s boss)

For your HAT modeling, when using 2 fast it will be better to use double wound. As well, 3 rogues in your group is normally subpar, dks are normally what you want to fill when you don't have hunters.

Punscho · 01/27/09, 1:58 AM

Not to my knowledge. And yes, HAT rogues just spam finishers.

Loot · 01/27/09, 4:34 AM

A glance at the code, just random search, not inspected it, found this...
if( p -> buffs_poison_doses )
{
player_multiplier *= 1.0 + p -> talents.savage_combat * 0.01;
player_crit += p -> talents.master_poisoner * 0.01;
}
That made me wonder how you handle such overlapping raid buffs, something like external config on the buffs present? Because for example 3% crit is kinda expected (retradin, ele) to be present, and if it is enabled from outside, this code will just double its value for the player, or I'm totally wrong :p

dedmonwakeen · 01/27/09, 8:37 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Something's still wrong in the realm of finishers, at least for Mutilate; Relentless Strikes regen is way low relative to Focused Attacks, and 6% envenom damage seems low as well (~9-10% is more typical). For that matter, yellow damage as a whole is low; you have 44% white and 18% Mutilate, when 38-40% and 22% are more typical for those numbers (at least for me)

Also, I could be reading this wrong, but it looks to me as though Instant and Wound poisons aren't critting, and they should be. Plus, Deadly Poison damage seems high, though that might tie into the finisher thing - fewer Envenoms would mean more DP damage.

I'll look into the poison crits.... Good catch, thanks!

I also need to dive into my energy regen modeling..... The speed of combo-point generation seems off considering the discrepancy in finisher-frequency. There is a "proc" section where I list "combo points per second". Does that seem off?

Originally Posted by path411

For your HAT modeling, when using 2 fast it will be better to use double wound. As well, 3 rogues in your group is normally subpar, dks are normally what you want to fill when you don't have hunters.

This particular run had 3xRogue and 2xHunter in one party. I'm afraid I haven't started working on DKs yet....... Rogue model still needs some lovin obviously......

Originally Posted by Loot

A glance at the code, just random search, not inspected it, found this...
if( p -> buffs_poison_doses )
{
player_multiplier *= 1.0 + p -> talents.savage_combat * 0.01;
player_crit += p -> talents.master_poisoner * 0.01;
}
That made me wonder how you handle such overlapping raid buffs, something like external config on the buffs present? Because for example 3% crit is kinda expected (retradin, ele) to be present, and if it is enabled from outside, this code will just double its value for the player, or I'm totally wrong :p

I didn't realize that Master Poisoner did not overlap with the 5% from Shaman/Boomkin....... ?

action -> attack -> rogue_attack -> special/melee
action -> spell -> rogue_poison -> wound/instant/deadly

Each one of those classes have a player_buff() and a target_debuff() method that cascade. The 3% crit should be included.

Action: http://simulationcraft.googlecode.co.../sc_action.cpp
Attack: http://simulationcraft.googlecode.co.../sc_attack.cpp
Spell: http://simulationcraft.googlecode.co...k/sc_spell.cpp

ShadowEric · 01/27/09, 9:01 AM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

I didn't realize that Master Poisoner did not overlap with the 5% from Shaman/Boomkin....... ?

Boomkin ? Just to be clear, Master Poisoner does not stack with a Paladin's Heart of the Crusader and an Elemental Shaman's Totem of Wrath. They fall under the same buff/debuff category under Blizzard's new buff system and those 3 don't stack.

PessimiStick · 01/27/09, 9:42 AM

From looking at the latest set of data, I agree with Aldriana that the breakdowns are still a bit off. The same can be said for the HAT numbers, my Evisc/White are generally 50-55/30-35 or somewhere around there.

Also, from the uptime section it seems that either there needs to be some additional logic for the action list that checks energy remaining, or the sim is going to have a tough time modeling Mut. Anything less than 100% HfB uptime is really unacceptable due to the penalty you take for dropping it, and the same for SnD.

Starfox · 01/27/09, 9:57 AM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

I didn't realize that Master Poisoner did not overlap with the 5% from Shaman/Boomkin....... ?

Shaman/Boomkin are the category: 5% Spell Crit Buff on players
Master Poisoner/Hearth of the Cruasder/Totem of Wrath: 3% Crit Debuff on mobs
Those give 3% crit to everything that hits that mob, melee or spell.

dedmonwakeen · 01/27/09, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by PessimiStick

From looking at the latest set of data, I agree with Aldriana that the breakdowns are still a bit off. The same can be said for the HAT numbers, my Evisc/White are generally 50-55/30-35 or somewhere around there.

Also, from the uptime section it seems that either there needs to be some additional logic for the action list that checks energy remaining, or the sim is going to have a tough time modeling Mut. Anything less than 100% HfB uptime is really unacceptable due to the penalty you take for dropping it, and the same for SnD.

Thanks for the breakdown. That gives me something to shoot for.

As for HfB up-time, 98.6% up-time means that it is not fully stacked for about 4sec on average. What I believe is happening is that a few of the 1000+ sim iterations is letting it drop off and then re-stack. My "refresh_at=2" may have been cutting it a little too fine. I'll see what I can do to improve the AI.

Originally Posted by Starfox

Shaman/Boomkin are the category: 5% Spell Crit Buff on players
Master Poisoner/Hearth of the Cruasder/Totem of Wrath: 3% Crit Debuff on mobs
Those give 3% crit to everything that hits that mob, melee or spell.

Ah.... Understood. I'll make the necessary restructuring tonight to prevent them from stacking.

Loot · 01/27/09, 10:37 AM

MMO-Champion RaidComp is an excellent tool to check stacking buffs, tho there was a plain list somewhere on mmp-champ too

dedmonwakeen · 01/27/09, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Loot

MMO-Champion RaidComp is an excellent tool to check stacking buffs, tho there was a plain list somewhere on mmp-champ too

Thanks..... SimulationCraft already handles most of the non-stacking buffs and debuffs...... The problem was that I did not realize Master Poisoner was in the "non-stacking" column......

Starfox · 01/27/09, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Ah.... Understood. I'll make the necessary restructuring tonight to prevent them from stacking.

Yea, should be handled like imp.scorch for mages.

And here is the bluepost with the extensive buff/debuff stacking list
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking

Rule of thumb is just that things that buff exactly the same thing do not stack. I think the only exception is -armor debuffs, where major ones (sunder armor, expose amor) and minor (fearie fire and sting from a wasp) exist.

jfred007 · 01/27/09, 12:07 PM

Looking over your results I just noticed that you had the same amount of expertise for all specs. If this was intentional I apologize, but for a combat rogue with 15/51/5--they would have 10 more expertise.

ShadowEric · 01/27/09, 12:51 PM

In addition, for Master Poisoner to give the 3% crit buff, the mob needs to be poisoned. This is something to take into consideration since an Evenom removes Deadly Poison from the mobs, even if only for a short time.

dedmonwakeen · 01/27/09, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by ShadowEric

In addition, for Master Poisoner to give the 3% crit buff, the mob needs to be poisoned. This is something to take into consideration since an Evenom removes Deadly Poison from the mobs, even if only for a short time.

Yep. The debuff is "dynamic" in the code right now...... The main problem was that I had it coded as a stacking self-only debuff.

• sp00n · 01/28/09, 4:57 AM

Just for shits'n'giggles, could you add a 18/51/2 combat dagger build?

Leto proposed one in the Roguecraft thread, and it was doing surprisingly well.
Rotation would be 5s/4r, weapons [Sinister Revenge] MH and [Webbed Death] OH.

Or just release the damn thing so that I can play around a bit.

Starfox · 01/28/09, 6:01 AM

Originally Posted by sp00n

Just for shits'n'giggles, could you add a 18/51/2 combat dagger build?

Leto proposed one in the Roguecraft thread, and it was doing surprisingly well.
Rotation would be 5s/4r, weapons [Sinister Revenge] MH and [Webbed Death] OH.

Or just release the damn thing so that I can play around a bit.

rogue=Rogue_18_51_2
party=2
level=80
talents=http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0xf0eZ0gVox0xqru0xRt0b
actions=flask,type=endless_rage/food,type=great_feast/apply_poison,main_hand=wound,off_hand=deadly
actions+=/auto_attack/pool_energy/slice_and_dice,min_combo_points=5,refresh_at=5
actions+=/tricks_of_the_trade,target=Rogue_51_13_7/killing_spree/blade_flurry
actions+=/rupture,min_combo_points=4/backstab
gear_strength=0
gear_agility=1030
gear_stamina=950
gear_intellect=0
gear_spirit=0
gear_attack_power=2500
gear_armor_penetration_rating=0
gear_expertise_rating=215
gear_hit_rating=215
gear_crit_rating=675
gear_haste_rating=280
glyph_rupture=1
glyph_slice_and_dice=1
glyph_blade_flurry=1
# Not fair to use the same stats since Combat Rogue needs less expertise.
# Trade expertise for ivalue-equal amount of attack power
enchant_attack_power=160
enchant_attack_expertise_rating=-80
relentless_earthstorm=1
tier7_2pc=1
tier7_4pc=1
main_hand=dagger,dps=156,speed=1.8,enchant=berserking
off_hand=dagger,dps=156,speed=1.4,enchant=berserking
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_might=688
sanctified_retribution=1
leader_of_the_pack=1

Player=Rogue_18_51_2  DPS=4111.4 (Error=+/-3.1 Range=+/-472)  DPR=264.7  RPS=15.5/15.3  (energy)
  Core Stats:  strength=124  agility=1341  stamina=1161  intellect=41  spirit=72  health=15699  mana=0
  Spell Stats:  power=1833  hit=8.2%  crit=14.7%  penetration=0  haste=8.5%  mp5=0
  Attack Stats:  power=4953  hit=6.6%  crit=30.5%  expertise=6.6  penetration=0  haste=8.5%
  Actions:
    backstab              Count= 69.3| 4.1sec  DPE=5697|33%  DPET=4869  DPR=100.0  Miss=0.0%  Hit=2295  Crit=6687|7920|77.5%
    deadly_poison         Count=  0.0| 0.0sec  DPE=   1|10%  DPET=   1  DPR= 1.$  Miss=-1.$%  Tick=1303
    melee_main_hand       Count=261.2| 1.1sec  DPE=1043|23%  DPET= 944  DPR= 1.$  Miss=14.4%  Hit= 802  Crit=1653|1987|47.5%  Glance= 602|24.0%
    melee_off_hand        Count=335.9| 0.9sec  DPE= 609|17%  DPET= 709  DPR= 1.$  Miss=14.4%  Hit= 469  Crit= 965|1160|47.5%  Glance= 351|24.0%
    rupture               Count= 11.5|24.8sec  DPE=5616| 5%  DPET=4800  DPR=224.7  Miss=0.0%  Tick=646
    wound_poison          Count=154.0| 1.9sec  DPE= 860|11%  DPET=   1  DPR= 1.$  Miss=0.8%  Hit= 669  Crit=1240|1457|34.3%

Gains
    Rogue_18_51_2:
        combat_potency=851.7
        energy_regen=3569.2
Procs:
    Rogue_18_51_2:
        combo_points=69.3|4.2sec
Up-Times:
    Rogue_18_51_2:
        34.7% : berserking_mh
        24.8% : berserking_oh
        16.7% : blade_flurry
        54.7% : slice_and_dice
        23.0% : tricks_of_the_trade

Gave tott to another rogue and recieved it in return from that one.

• sp00n · 01/28/09, 8:56 AM

Now that's interesting. Only 54.7% uptime for SnD (Leto said the cycle was very very tight), but DPS is still higher than Combat Fist/Dagger?

Tricks of the trade probably destroys this cycle.
Still wonder about that high DPS and that low SnD value though.

// Edit
About SnD uptime:
Combat Fist/Dagger has only 93.5% uptime in your simulation. Over the course of a 300 second fight this sums up to 6.5*3 = 19.5 seconds of no SnD. Any rogue with such a downtime wouldn't participate in any of our raids (on an un-interrupted fight, which I assume the tool simulates).

Therefore I assume the code is making the wrong assumptions. It should refresh SnD whenever it is about to fall off, no matter what the current combo points are, with maybe a buffer of 1 second of downtime if you are in reach of 4 or 5 CPs (to reflect human decisions and bad luck). It should not ramp up CPs even if it is going to end in 1 second, and you've just applied a Rupture/Eviscerate. Not sure if it is already coded that way, but according to the data it is not or faulty.

The second possibility might be that the uptime is calculated versus the total span of 300 seconds, but the actual fight length is lower than that - which I think I was reading somewhere in that thread.
As an example, in a fight with an actual duration of 285 seconds and with never letting SnD drop, the uptime versus the 'standard' 300 seconds would be only 95% (which would approximately match the 93.5%).

A third (partial) explanation I can come up with is the start of a fight. Is the tool assuming an actual starting and ending point or does it assume all buffs are already up and you start at some point after the fight has begun?
As for the starting rotation, you don't begin with a full 5(4) CPs to do a SnD. Instead, you start with 1 or 2 CPs, perform SnD, and then either go with 5r or 5(4)s, depending on the actual CPs you have earned before and Combat Potency Procs.

To speak only for myself, I mostly start with 2 CPs, even if I don't have a crit SS glyph proc and then decide whether I proceed with SnD or Rupture. If I chose Rupture, I even might go back to a 3s afterwards if SnD will fall off otherwise.

songster · 01/28/09, 9:13 AM

OK, you *cannot* have 23% uptime on tricks of the trade from a single rogue. It's a 6 second boost on a 30 second timer, so the maximum is 20%. Uptime on Blade Flurry is also too high. You can get three flurries in a 300 second fight, so the total uptime is 45 seconds / 300 seconds = 15%. Either your uptime calculation is wrong, or you're overestimating how long these various abilities last.

Other weird stuff: "Spell Stats: power=1833". Where does this number come from, and what is it affecting?

dedmonwakeen · 01/28/09, 9:20 AM

Starfox, did you run in the presence of the entire raid?
My runs have been: simcraft input=raid_80.txt input=hunter.txt input=rogue.txt
The hunter/rogue configs put them all in the same party for modeling HAT.

Originally Posted by sp00n

// Edit
About SnD uptime:
Combat Fist/Dagger has only 93.5% uptime in your simulation. Over the course of a 300 second fight this sums up to 6.5*3 = 19.5 seconds of no SnD. Any rogue with such a downtime wouldn't participate in any of our raids (on an un-interrupted fight, which I assume the tool simulates).

Therefore I assume the code is making the wrong assumptions. It should refresh SnD whenever it is about to fall off, no matter what the current combo points are, with maybe a buffer of 1 second of downtime if you are in reach of 4 or 5 CPs (to reflect human decisions and bad luck). It should not ramp up CPs even if it is going to end in 1 second, and you've just applied a Rupture/Eviscerate. Not sure if it is already coded that way, but according to the data it is not or faulty.

The second possibility might be that the uptime is calculated versus the total span of 300 seconds, but the actual fight length is lower than that - which I think I was reading somewhere in that thread.
As an example, in a fight with an actual duration of 285 seconds and with never letting SnD drop, the uptime versus the 'standard' 300 seconds would be only 95% (which would approximately match the 93.5%).

A third (partial) explanation I can come up with is the start of a fight. Is the tool assuming an actual starting and ending point or does it assume all buffs are already up and you start at some point after the fight has begun?
As for the starting rotation, you don't begin with a full 5(4) CPs to do a SnD. Instead, you start with 1 or 2 CPs, perform SnD, and then either go with 5r or 5(4)s, depending on the actual CPs you have earned before and Combat Potency Procs.

To speak only for myself, I mostly start with 2 CPs, even if I don't have a crit SS glyph proc and then decide whether I proceed with SnD or Rupture. If I chose Rupture, I even might go back to a 3s afterwards if SnD will fall off otherwise.

The fight begins with no buffs on the target. It seems I need to improve the "conditional" support so that the AI handles the engage better. Let me rephrase: I need to improve the AI in general. I must say I have a newfound respect for raiding Rogues.

sp00n, I'll probably release an alpha today, but won't put the hunters/rogues in the standard raid_80.txt config file. (It still needs more testing and I'm a bit concerned about performance: Classes that need to "wait" flood the simulator with "player_ready" events, dragging down performance.) I'll put out a melee_test.txt config that is self-contained and I'll publish a SampleOutputMelee wiki that I'll keep up to date as we tune the models.

Originally Posted by songster

OK, you *cannot* have 23% uptime on tricks of the trade from a single rogue. It's a 6 second boost on a 30 second timer, so the maximum is 20%. Uptime on Blade Flurry is also too high. You can get three flurries in a 300 second fight, so the total uptime is 45 seconds / 300 seconds = 15%. Either your uptime calculation is wrong, or you're overestimating how long these various abilities last.

Other weird stuff: "Spell Stats: power=1833". Where does this number come from, and what is it affecting?

SimulationCraft's definition of "up-time" is not time-related. It is calculated in the following manner: Every time a buff COULD benefit an action a counter is incremented: "UP" is increased if the buff is present and "DOWN" is increased if the buff is NOT present. The value reported at the end is: "UP/(UP+DOWN)". The idea is to report a percentage that represents "usefulness" as opposed to just being "present".

What this means is that unless the fight ends immediately upon a CD reset, then the actual up-time will be higher than (duration/cooldown).

The spell power stat is just an inheritance from a default "caster" config in the main raid_80.txt file. This has been fixed.

Leto · 01/28/09, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

SimulationCraft's definition of "up-time" is not time-related. It is calculated in the following manner: Every time a buff COULD benefit an action a counter is incremented: "UP" is increased if the buff is present and "DOWN" is increased if the buff is NOT present. The value reported at the end is: "UP/(UP+DOWN)". The idea is to report a percentage that represents "usefulness" as opposed to just being "present".

What this means is that unless the fight ends immediately upon a CD reset, then the actual up-time will be higher than (duration/cooldown).

The spell power stat is just an inheritance from a default "caster" config in the main raid_80.txt file. This has been fixed.

Does this mean that the "down time" would be inflated for specs with a higher number of attacks per second, since more attacks without the buff present when needed would occur, even if the actual time the buff is missing for each spec is the same?

Also, just a minor note for combat daggers, Vulajin's spreadsheet estimates that dual wound poison would be better than wound/deadly for it, since dagger hit frequently enough to outweigh the deadly dps.

Starfox · 01/28/09, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Starfox, did you run in the presence of the entire raid?
My runs have been: simcraft input=raid_80.txt input=hunter.txt input=rogue.txt

Ah well, nope. I have my own raid_80.txt (shadow, ele+enhancer, mage+10%crit, warlock and serveral druids to get values for different rotations) and added the rogue profiles from your file to and just simulated it with that.
And yea, spellpower is probably because i have the default_xx values so every caster has the same values so i can kind of compare the dps i should do to other classes at same gear level.