I was just about to say a similar thing, although for a different reason. If poisons do go to a typical PPM system I'm wondering if relentless as a 5-point talent will be overpowered by 18/51/2 builds instead of all 5 points in the standard 15/51/5 build. It's no massive change by any stretch, but combat using instant poison instead of the clearly unintended result of wound makes more sense to me, and in the end, more dps is more dps.
The problem with that is that the situation is 'fixed' via a talent, the underlying problematic mechanic wouldn't be changed, and I fear that would make the Improved Poison talents basically a must have; similar to the old Relentless Strikes before.
Of course testing is needed to see how it all works out.
Overall, I'm a bit underwhelmed and I hope they still have something in their bag-o-changes. The announced ones so far were almost all already known, there isn't much to see yet of those "Please remember that we have not announced all of the 3.1 changes yet. Even when 3.1 goes up on the PTR, it will not initially have all of the class changes in it. We want to get this patch up early so we have lots of time for feedback".
*New Talent* Primal Gore, Tier 10, 1 point talent - Grants the periodic damage from your Rake, Lacerate and Rip abilities the ability to critically hit.
A similar talent for rogues affecting not only garrote and rupture but also deadly poison could interresting in terms of deadly poison vs wound/ip
Looks like envenom's tooltip was changed also. That's 2 votes for PPM poisons. Sounds like a done deal to me, but the GC comment not directly stating it was coming is still slightly suspect, although for good reasons I guess.
Edit: Oh, someone posted the envenom tooltip already, my bad.
I applaud the changes to HfB. With the increased mobility required for Naxx bosses it will be a big help in terms of game play.
I miss combat so fingers crossed for these changes too. But my question is this... to those of you who are Old Skool, were the early days of TBC as short of gear alternatives? As a casual PvPer, PvE raider, my dagger choices are Webbed Death and ...Webbed Death. I am still using the Librarians blues! I have seen innumerable 1.8 daggers drop but apparently they are not worth the /roll for a mut rogue
Bring on all the changes you like Blizz, the guys/girls in these forums will sort out the best mix, but please please please bring some variety to the loot.
In TBC you still had relatively easy access to PvP weapons, as the rating requirement was rather low (something like 1800 or such?). Besides that, [Latro's Shifting Sword] was a decent off hand due to its speed for quite some time also.
In terms of gear, TBC had the advantage that there were multiple instances available with multiple tier sets.
Also, poisons weren't scaling with AP, so the current mantra with poison damage > all didn't exist. A slow dagger in the main hand was actually the preferred choice, though a faster one wasn't that bad due to the somewhat weird damage calculation for Mutilate.
Poison mechanics are obviously something they're working on at the moment. From GC's comments we know that their goals are:
1) Reduce dependence on super-fast weapons for Mutilate and Combat (recall that calculations from a couple of weeks ago showed that the Lighning Reflexes change makes a fast mainhand desirable even for Sinister Strike combat builds)
2) Stop Shiv being a desirable build
Thus far, the only changes we know about are a massive increase in IP proc rate (Improved poisons being 50% instead of 10%, Envenom buffing IP application by 80% instead of 15%). It is absolutely certain that this change will not occur in isolation. For a Mutilate build, it would buff IP application rate from ~40% on average to 80%+, which would be more than 10% buff to our TOTAL DPS. I would not be at all surprised to see IP damage halved, to cancel out the doubling of proc rate. Let's examine for a moment the implications of halving IP damage in concert with the changes to Improved Poisons / Envenom.
Firstly, since the fully talented proc rate would be ~80% depending on Envenom buff uptime, the additional benefit of using Shiv for a 100% proc is minimal. This would therefore be a robust solution to issue (2), and rule out Shiv builds permanently.
Secondly, since the IP damage from untalented poisons would be halved, it would rein in the damage of HaT builds somewhat, since these generally do not take poison talents. However, as it stands, it would be a substantial nerf to a Serrated Blades combat build, since this build also does not take poison talents. This could be counteracted by shifting IP to a PPM mechanic or to being a percentage of weapon damage, since Combat uses a slow mainhand.
TLDR version of the above:
a) The changes announced thus far are a significant buff to IP proc rate, which will almost certainly be balanced by a reduction in IP damage per proc.
b) The reduction in IP damage is likely to also involve shifting IP to a PPM mechanic or to being a percentage of weapon damage.
c) The net effect will be more or less neutral for Mutilate, will shift Combat and HaT back towards favouring slow mainhand weapons, and will permanently prevent Shiv builds being viable in PvE.
Thus far, the only changes we know about are a massive increase in IP proc rate (Improved poisons being 50% instead of 10%, Envenom buffing IP application by 80% instead of 15%). It is absolutely certain that this change will not occur in isolation. For a Mutilate build, it would buff IP application rate from ~40% on average to 80%+, which would be more than 10% buff to our TOTAL DPS. I would not be at all surprised to see IP damage halved, to cancel out the doubling of proc rate.
No no. There is no massive increase to IP proc rate confirmed or even implied here. The new Improved Poisons won't mean talented Instant Poison will suddenly go from 30% chance to 70% chance. If there is no change from static percentage proc to PPM, it will go from 20% + 10% to 1.50*20% which is of course no change at all, just a different wording. The only thing changed here is that the talent (and Envenom buff) will also work equally well with a PPM based Instant Poison.
The real implication here is that slow weapons with Instant Poison on them will most likely get a significant buff for all specs. Whether or not it ends up being a net nerf for fast weapons with Instant Poison depends on the PPM rate they eventually settle on.
Argh, need to read closer - difference between "chance to apply" and "frequency of applying". Might not quite be no change though, depending how the changes stack.
Old: 20% + 10% + 15% = 45% with Envenom buff up and full Imp Poisons
New: 20% * 1.5 * 1.75 = 52.5% with Envenom buff up and full Imp Poisons?
I wonder how they'll knock Shiv builds on the head then? If anything, using PPM and thus lowering the base proc rate for fast weapons will favour Shiv builds even more, since the relative benefit of forcing a proc increases as the base proc rate decreases.
Maybe putting an internal cool down on Shiv. Not a cool down on the ability per se, but on it's chance to apply the poison with 100%. Would at least leave the 'Rogue in Evasion' counter alone.
Anyhow, just speculating here.
Has anybody actually been on the PTR yet and done some testing?
It's all speculation since the change to PPM is uncertain, let alone the PPM rate and how attractive it will be to put IP on a fast weapon at all, but I think the basic idea is to make SS and Mutilate more attractive since increased special damage from a slower weapon won't come at a cost of less Instant Poison dps anymore. So it's not a nerf to Shiv as much as a buff to the alternatives.
Under the hypothesis of a PPM system, i'm wondering about the speed they will choose to yield the same 20% chance to apply IP as the current implementation. Or in other words what will be the base chance to apply IP per seconds. As the weapons above that speed will receive a poison damage increase, the ones under a decrease, and the ones with the exact same speed will maintain a status quo.
If status quo at 1.4 -> all weapons will receive up to 2.7/1.4 ~ 92.9% poison damage increase
If status quo at 1.8 -> slower weapons will receive up to 2.7/1.8 ~ 50% poison damage increase
-> faster weapons will suffer up to 1.8/2.7 ~ 22.2% poison damage decrease
If status quo at 2.7 -> all weapons will suffer up to 1.4/2.7 ~ 48.1% poison damage decrease
And i'm wondering about the future of wound poison as well. Depending on whether it follows the same time-normalized mechanic, or it remains as is (AP coeffs + base damage value included), will determine if it's still going to be a possible choice for combat OH.
Last edited by Bonesong : 02/24/09 at 8:48 AM.
Reason: Removed the poison frequency clarification for songster as was done by Lieska while i was editing + Grammar
The improved poisons change isn't a buff (20% to 30% was 50% more procs, 10 ppm (random number) to 15 ppm will be 50% more procs).
But it's a small buff to envenom (30% to 45% proc chance vs 15 to 26.25 ppm). Old version was 50% more procs, new is 75%. They based the 75% increased frequency off the difference between 35% proc (no improved poisons, envenom buff up) and 20% proc (no improved poisons, no envenom buff) -- maybe they'll nerf that to 50% when they realize the mistake.
Whether the entire change to PPM is a buff with X weapon speed I'm uncertain; I can't verify the PPM. And yes, Wound Poison is now PPM as well.
Poison changes aside (which I'd say bode the introduction of a weapon speed normalization system), the Expose Armor change (to make it more like SnD, essentially) is at least a step towards making supplying that debuff less burdensome. Still not the same opportunity cost as a sunder from a dps warrior, but at least the 5 CPs requirement has been removed.
From what i saw just now, after testing on the training dummy, IP change result in a serious dmg loss, only 6% of my dmg was IP, 15% was DP - that is with Mutilate spec, tried twice, IP on SR and second time on WD. The proc was very rare. I was also unable to use HfB with garrote and rupture, however this is probably some bug caused by UI or constant critical errors which me and my guildies experience very often on PTR now.
Poison mechanics are obviously something they're working on at the moment. From GC's comments we know that their goals are:
1) Reduce dependence on super-fast weapons for Mutilate and Combat (recall that calculations from a couple of weeks ago showed that the Lighning Reflexes change makes a fast mainhand desirable even for Sinister Strike combat builds)
2) Stop Shiv being a desirable build
Thus far, the only changes we know about are a massive increase in IP proc rate (Improved poisons being 50% instead of 10%, Envenom buffing IP application by 80% instead of 15%). It is absolutely certain that this change will not occur in isolation. For a Mutilate build, it would buff IP application rate from ~40% on average to 80%+, which would be more than 10% buff to our TOTAL DPS. I would not be at all surprised to see IP damage halved, to cancel out the doubling of proc rate. Let's examine for a moment the implications of halving IP damage in concert with the changes to Improved Poisons / Envenom.
Firstly, since the fully talented proc rate would be ~80% depending on Envenom buff uptime, the additional benefit of using Shiv for a 100% proc is minimal. This would therefore be a robust solution to issue (2), and rule out Shiv builds permanently.
Secondly, since the IP damage from untalented poisons would be halved, it would rein in the damage of HaT builds somewhat, since these generally do not take poison talents. However, as it stands, it would be a substantial nerf to a Serrated Blades combat build, since this build also does not take poison talents. This could be counteracted by shifting IP to a PPM mechanic or to being a percentage of weapon damage, since Combat uses a slow mainhand.
TLDR version of the above:
a) The changes announced thus far are a significant buff to IP proc rate, which will almost certainly be balanced by a reduction in IP damage per proc.
b) The reduction in IP damage is likely to also involve shifting IP to a PPM mechanic or to being a percentage of weapon damage.
c) The net effect will be more or less neutral for Mutilate, will shift Combat and HaT back towards favouring slow mainhand weapons, and will permanently prevent Shiv builds being viable in PvE.
This is confusing me. I have been throwing numbers back and forth, and I may have lost some on the floor.
If we assume 6PPM for IP, the changes to non-hasted weapon speed suggest an aprx 25% drop in PPM for Mutilate builds. Briefly calculating the effects I came to a drop from aprx 9 IP procs per mutilate cycle of 17 seconds with the current system to 6.8 IP procs with the new system. And with a further reduction of IP damage from 718 to 660, Mutilate IP damage suggests a 36% drop. The reason is, that where IP had 37.5% chance to proc per hit, it now only has 14% with a 1.4 speed OH.
On the other hand, using a 2.5 speed MH, Combat gains from this, as IP procs over a 25 second cycle goes from 5.8 to 7.25. The reason for this is, that where IP had a 20% chance to proc per hit, it how has a 25% chance with a 2.5 speed MH.
Can anyone confirm this, or did I go wrong somwhere?
But it's a small buff to envenom (30% to 45% proc chance vs 15 to 26.25 ppm). Old version was 50% more procs, new is 75%. They based the 75% increased frequency off the difference between 35% proc (no improved poisons, envenom buff up) and 20% proc (no improved poisons, no envenom buff) -- maybe they'll nerf that to 50% when they realize the mistake.
It's not necessarily a mistake. Using Envenom to boost IP damage is an indirect way of buffing DP (rather, the IP/DP combo) which can help prevent IP/IP/Evis from taking over.
Before you start to drift, and your soul begins to scream.
I just wanted to tell you, that you're listening to a dream.
* Glyph of Sap -- Increases the duration of Sap by 20 sec. (Old: 10 sec.)
* Glyph of Deadly Throw -- Increases the slowing effect on Deadly Throw by 10%. (Old: Increases the range on Deadly Throw by 5 yards.)
* Glyph of Adrenaline Rush -- Increases the duration of Adrenaline Rush by 5 sec. (Old: Decreases the cooldown of Adrenaline Rush by 60 sec.)
* Glyph of Sprint -- Increases the movement speed of your Sprint ability by an additional 30%. (Old: also reduced the duration by 5%)
* Glyph of Crippling Poison -- Increases the chance to inflict your target with Crippling Poison by an additional 20%. (Old: 10%)
* Glyph of Pick Lock -- Reduces the cast time of your Pick Lock ability by 100%. (Old: 75)
* Glyph of Hunger For Blood *new* -- Increases the bonus damage from Hunger For Blood by 1% per application.
* Glyph of Killing Spree *new* -- Reduces the cooldown on Killing Spree by 45 sec.
* Glyph of Shadow Dance *new* -- Increases the duration of Shadow Dance by 4 sec.
* Glyph of Fan of Knives *new* -- Increases the damage done by Fan of Knives by 20%.
* Glyph of Tricks of the Trade *new* -- Your Tricks of the Trade grants an additional 10% bonus damage to your target.
* Glyph of Mutilate *new* -- Reduces the cost of Mutilate by 5 energy.
* Glyph of Cloak of Shadows *new* -- While Cloak of Shadows is active, you take 40% less physical damage.
Some new and updated Glyphs for us - looks interesting - some exchanges my take place.
Am I missing something with HFB? The change is OK for raiding I guess, at least on bosses. Bleeds will be up and when it inevitably drops it's easier to get back up, though if you never let it drop before the change is nothing but a very minor nerf. However, for trash, 5 man, and solo stuff it seems like a pretty direct nerf. The ability to pre-buff it was it's one saving grace in those situations. I am incredibly annoyed that their months of brainstorming to make it less tedious to use has really done nothing at all for people that used it properly before. It was 1 button press every 27 seconds or so before, it's 1 button press every 27 seconds or so now, conditionally. How is this a grand improvement that makes it less annoying?
edit: And now I just saw the new HFB glyph posted above.
"Glyph of Hunger For Blood *new* -- Increases the bonus damage from Hunger For Blood by 1% per application."
1% per application? I'd guess that will change=)
endedit:
Feh, on a less whiney front: Are maces really going to be that much better than swords/CQC now? Even with a Calamity?
Poison changes aside (which I'd say bode the introduction of a weapon speed normalization system), the Expose Armor change (to make it more like SnD, essentially) is at least a step towards making supplying that debuff less burdensome. Still not the same opportunity cost as a sunder from a dps warrior, but at least the 5 CPs requirement has been removed.
I like the expose armor mechanic change very much as well, but something surprises me. Both a major + minor armor debuff are 3925 + 1260 = 5185 less armor. If a standard boss has around 13083 armor (based on Vulajin's spreadsheet default value), that means 5185/13083 ~ -39% armor. With the new values of major and minor armor debuffs, we end up at -25% total. I can't figure out any other changes/mechanic that would compensate for this. (Except bosses having 20740 armor from now on...)
As a side note, this change would mean an indirect slight buff to the mace spec relatively to the other specs, as it'd remove 0.15*13083 = 1962 armor instead of the current 0.15*(13083 - 5185) = 1185 armor (on a the assumed boss 13083 armor value).
Last edited by Bonesong : 02/24/09 at 9:54 AM.
Reason: Clarification
HfB - Miscommunication between departments. Great job, there.
FoK - We really didn't need this. It does enforce the idea of going Trash Vs Boss spec with Dual Specs.
TotT - I guess it makes more sense with them removing stacking of many +% buffs (I.E. Hysteria), but it seems excessive. A strange way of a raid DPS boost, and won't be easy to compare to other glyphs.
Mut - A 3rd obvious glyph for Mut builds.
CoS - Really? With how long we've dealt with our incredible difference of strength with cooldowns versus without cooldowns, they add more utility to the cooldowns?
Before you start to drift, and your soul begins to scream.
I just wanted to tell you, that you're listening to a dream.
Well, let's go through some of them
HfB - Miscommunication between departments. Great job, there.
FoK - We really didn't need this. It does enforce the idea of going Trash Vs Boss spec with Dual Specs.
These 2 glyphs are a joke. HfB already was the bandaid talent where they just added more % if needed and Fok is borderline overpowered on trash. Turning HfB even further into a bandaid talent is just going to weaken our already underbudgetted talents even more. The mutilate glyph looks really nice though and is a welcome addition.
Objects are not deceiving, they are deception.
What we see what we hear, all that our sences present to us is a fiction no more real then a dream.
We can only know that which we believe, that is all we have.
Am I missing something with HFB? The change is OK for raiding I guess, at least on bosses. Bleeds will be up and when it inevitably drops it's easier to get back up, though if you never let it drop before the change is nothing but a very minor nerf. However, for trash, 5 man, and solo stuff it seems like a pretty direct nerf.
The change to HfB makes garrote a very attractive opener for assassination Rogues depending on party/raid set up plus it is another way to nerf the synergy between Overkill and FoK. Now either you give up 15% damage to FoK and proceed into old way FoK spamming early on the trash pull maximising Overkill and praying for a Deep Wounds or equivalent proc or garrote straight away into HfB and then FoK. I guess it all has to do with how much your trash pack is about to live.
02/24/09, 5:03 AM
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