Whether its Combat Maces/Swords/Daggers-Fists will depend on Itemization in Ulduar. It is still disheartening to see, with current state, we will no longer be seeing Dual Weapon Specialization builds (e.g. Fist/Sword).

Warriors thunderclap puts bleeds on the targets, so I don't think we should have any significant problems with HFB on trash honestly.

Doesn't weapon twisting look very attractive now with the envenom change? +75% proc rate on double IP if you swap before envenom should make it worth the lost white swings and global I would think.

We finally get a glyph for Mutilate, one sparkling diamond in the rough as it were.

Poisons moving to a PPM base is interesting and I'm waiting to see if rogues will get an ability that gives periodic effects a chance to crit like the druids have, I'm sure it would mean a slight damage reduction based on the current damage output of rupture in raids but I quite like the idea.

Hunger for Blood seems to by bugged at the moment, I cannot trigger it with Garrote or Rupture. At first I thought it might be UI bug or training dummie bug, but I did testing without UI on different servers on dummies and players. I’ve asked around and got confirmation from other rogues, it was hard, because all of them are combat now.
Some screens for a proof.

HfB dark, no bleeds

Bleed present, icon lights up

"You can't do that yet" while spamming key nr 1

Can anyone confirm that poisons have been moved to a PPM system? Of course it makes the most sense to balance fast / slow weapons for Rogues but then it really makes me concerned that this will be a hefty nerf towards our current spec - which is already under achieving compared to some other classes.

When I originally read them I thought two things, one that this is going to really boost us up and possibility but us to where we should be on the meters, but then I also thought that this will make fast / fast daggers out perform even more... I did not really consider a PPM mechanic change.

so from what ive read it looks like mut will be going down

this goes out for all of you: for whining please join blizzard-forums and start a new thread... you surely will be heard ;-)

for the rest: keep the discussion as usually data-based, intelligent, realistic etc...

i am sick of all the whiny comments everywhere...

wasnt whining. was just wondering. Seeing as whenever damn Calamity drops ill be going combat, but your post did seem to be filled with data and intelligence.

HfB is losing its stacks, so the wording on the glyph is confusing. It's either an old glyph or it's just going to be 1%, which feels underwhelming for a glyph.

I have to believe the new glyphs that don't make any sense are simply data-mined glyphs left over from previous internal testing they've done. We really won't know for sure though until the Inscriptionists have had some time on the PTR or Jillian McWeaksauce has shown up.

Until such time I think it's safe to assume that at least the ones that don't make sense don't exist; other glyphs that do make sense may not exist either.

I seem to be the only one underwhelmed by the Mutilate glyph. What am I overlooking?

5 energy? For a Major Glyph to an ability that already costs 60 energy, meh?

The Hunger for Blood Glyph is clearly outdated but I'd still have to agree with Parra, and of course, Tinwhisker's signature.

None of these updates to Mutilate, specifically Hunger for Blood, constitute anything near what's needed. I'll pocket my cynicism until people have stress-tested the PTR, but at first glance, this isn't an inspiring day for Mutilate.

One more note: where is the information about Maces? I suppose they have shelved that for now?

~3.5k swing with 2xWD with double Instant
Overall : Exid
build was 0/0/0

sure its not much, but I will perform some additional runs with SR/Anarchy and specced after our 10mans

You're overlooking the fact that the Tier 7 set bonus, which takes a whopping 3 energy off of Mutilate, is what keeps people from replacing their Tier 7 pieces with say the gloves from Malygos or the pants from 3D Sartharion. It's fathoms better than having a useless third glyph sitting around. We'll see how it pans out with the poison change, but I think it's looking like Mutilate will keep on par with combat.

Oh, as another request for those doing testing: please additionally post how much haste rating you had for the test; we don't know yet whether it matters or not.

Looks like that would be 8 ppm?

I had 247 haste rating.
I was going to test with SR/Anarchy next but got dragged to some 10 mans :/
Will be able to continue testing in about 2-3 hours only.

I'm sure there are things I'm forgetting here but I thought it would be good to put up some general guidelines for testing things in the 3.1 PTR.

1. Post your stats for testing. This includes but is not limited to:
   1. AP
   2. Crit rating/total crit
   3. Talents
   4. Haste
   5. Hit rating
2. Test only one thing at a time. This means:
   1. Take off anything with a proc and de-talent from any procs (unless it's what you're testing of course).
   2. Use very fast, white quality weapons with a low damage range if you can. (Think starting zone vendors.)
   3. Use a single weapon if possible. (Eg, when testing a proc, put some pretty flowers in your other hand.)
3. Get as large of a sample set as you can. >3K attacks is minimum, 10K is better.
4. Be prepared to do additional testing. You'll often be asked to alter something in the test if there's a bump in the data.

Not all of this is useful every time but the more info you give, the fewer questions come up.

I'm sure there's more but I thought it would be better to get this up faster than sit and think about it. If anyone would like to add to this please let me know. Unless you're a moderator, then just edit away.

I'd also recommend testing with different weapon types.

For example, if the PPM is 8, then the "normalized" speed would be 1.5, where the PPM results in the same proc chance IP has on live. If the same PPM applies to non-daggers, then that's a big proc rate buff for slow weapons.

Well, the issue is that while most of those rules apply to *something*, not all are needed for every test. And as people are doing us a service by assisting with testing, I'm disinclined to make their jobs any harder than they need to be. So for the moment, lets go with the following rules of thumb for poison testing:

1) If you are going to DW, both weapons should be the same speed and use the same poison.
2) Remove all procs that affect your attack speed.
3) When you report your results, give us: number of attacks, number of poison procs, weapon speed, haste rating, and any passive attacks (talents, etc.) that affect your swing speed. Some of these can be drawn from the WWS. Some cannot.

Regarding nuoHep's data: is PPM is reduced by haste, the PPM is 95% likely to be between 7.99 and 9.16; if it is not, the earlier range I posted applies.

5 energy off the cost of Mutilate means a Rogue with that Glyph can Mutilate 13 times for every 12 times a Rogue without the Glyph can Mutilate, without Focused Attacks. If Focused Attacks is considered, that extra Mutilate itself can yield extra energy to Mutilate even more often over the duration of a longer encounter!

With Mutilate constituting a small percentage of the build's total damage, this encounter you envision better last several minutes to make it a significant glyph.

I know lag isn't typically considered an important factor, but when you consider the fact that Rogues already generate 5 energy in a half of a second, it's just not an impressive sounding *new* Glyph. Better than a useless third? Sure, but I guess I was hoping for more than "better than useless".

Edited for Math Fix.