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Old 02/10/09, 6:40 PM   #286
Hallagenic
Banned
 
Human Rogue
 
Malfurion
Originally Posted by tredogg35 View Post
Why would a combat dagger rogue want Lethality instead of Ruthlessness? In my experiance I only get Evis and Env off during AR. Being combo point starved its hard to even keep Rup and SnD up, so I see it as a waste... Am I wrong?
First to pick a few sentiments at this statement. One there should never be a pure combat dagger rogue as the weapon speeds of daggers just don't match what you need for Mh 2.50 or slower and the drop in your dps is just retarded.

Secondly as a combat rogue you should have both Lethality and Ruthlessness being 15/51/5 spec which Imo is way better than a 7/51/13 spec focusing on rupture damage.

And thirdly as your gear gets better as a combat rogue it becomes ungodly to maintain a 3/5/3-5 rotation being 3snd 5 rupture and 3-5 eviscerate depending on how much snd time is left.

Edit: Adriana do you feel the wording for Lightning Reflexes is indicitive of only affecting HR on gear and from potions making those more powerfull then they are now or is it more closely related to 10% base speed on your character?

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Old 02/10/09, 7:01 PM   #287
tredogg35
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Area 52
Originally Posted by Hallagenic View Post
First to pick a few sentiments at this statement. One there should never be a pure combat dagger rogue as the weapon speeds of daggers just don't match what you need for Mh 2.50 or slower and the drop in your dps is just retarded.

Secondly as a combat rogue you should have both Lethality and Ruthlessness being 15/51/5 spec which Imo is way better than a 7/51/13 spec focusing on rupture damage.

And thirdly as your gear gets better as a combat rogue it becomes ungodly to maintain a 3/5/3-5 rotation being 3snd 5 rupture and 3-5 eviscerate depending on how much snd time is left.

Edit: Adriana do you feel the wording for Lightning Reflexes is indicitive of only affecting HR on gear and from potions making those more powerfull then they are now or is it more closely related to 10% base speed on your character?
Im actually 13/51/7. For combat daggers why would you pass on Opportunity? 20% more backstab damage is not helpful?

Have you been combat daggers lately? 3/5/3 rotation won't happen unless you want to have periods where rupture drops off. Iv been doing a 1Snd/5Rup rotation and keep them both up perfectly but no way I could find a way to sneak an Evis or Env in except during AR.

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Old 02/10/09, 7:51 PM   #288
tenaki
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Rogue
 
Dath'Remar
Originally Posted by Hallagenic View Post
First to pick a few sentiments at this statement. One there should never be a pure combat dagger rogue as the weapon speeds of daggers just don't match what you need for Mh 2.50 or slower and the drop in your dps is just retarded.
I think he means "combat dagger" in the sense that he is using the old school dagger attack of "backstab" rather than SS...

In which case, while daggers max out at 1.8spd (I can't think of a 1.9spd current weapon), the way backstab is calculated takes that into account so that overall BS damage is similar to SS damage.

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Old 02/10/09, 8:08 PM   #289
Wodahs
Don Flamenco
 
Human Rogue
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Hallagenic View Post
First to pick a few sentiments at this statement. One there should never be a pure combat dagger rogue as the weapon speeds of daggers just don't match what you need for Mh 2.50 or slower and the drop in your dps is just retarded.

Secondly as a combat rogue you should have both Lethality and Ruthlessness being 15/51/5 spec which Imo is way better than a 7/51/13 spec focusing on rupture damage.

And thirdly as your gear gets better as a combat rogue it becomes ungodly to maintain a 3/5/3-5 rotation being 3snd 5 rupture and 3-5 eviscerate depending on how much snd time is left.

Edit: Adriana do you feel the wording for Lightning Reflexes is indicitive of only affecting HR on gear and from potions making those more powerfull then they are now or is it more closely related to 10% base speed on your character?
What? You do know combat daggers uses backstab instead of sinister strike for combo point generation correct? I hit close to 5k dps combat dagger spec'd on patch last week, and with todays changes, I anticipate it going up a bit. You may need to add opportunity into your combat dagger build as well.

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Old 02/10/09, 10:36 PM   #290
PSGarak
Bald Bull
 
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Undead Warlock
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by Hallagenic View Post
Edit: Adriana do you feel the wording for Lightning Reflexes is indicitive of only affecting HR on gear and from potions making those more powerfull then they are now or is it more closely related to 10% base speed on your character?
This same question has been asked over the years about a rather large number of effects modifiying haste, crit, and even hit. So far, the only effect yet seen in-game for any of them is the naive one, an additive X% of that stat. As far as I'm aware, the Deathknight STR->Parry thing is the only class talent or ability to ever interact with ratings, and even that adds to the rating statistic, it does not mutiply or otherwise modify it. It is an extremely safe bet to say that the talent simply adds 10% haste.

Note that all sources of haste multiply (all haste rating counting as one source), so this does impact the value of haste potions and suchlike, but no more or less than any other speed or damage increase. In particular, it does not change the relative value of these effects compared to alternatives.


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Old 02/10/09, 11:11 PM   #291
 frmorrison
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Ashstrike
Human Paladin
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Hallagenic View Post
Has anyone taken note of the wording of the new mechanic 10% Passive melee haste. Does this mean that its just 10% of whatever your weapon speed is base or is it actually talking about a 10% Inc on all Haste Rating.
I think it is pretty safe to assume it is just 10% haste off your weapon speed, not 10% of your total haste.

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Old 02/11/09, 12:49 AM   #292
Pinch
Glass Joe
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Sen'jin
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
I think it is pretty safe to assume it is just 10% haste off your weapon speed, not 10% of your total haste.
Nitpicking here, but it's not "haste off" your weapon speed; This is misleading. With the SnD buff (at 40%), you will perform 7.7% more attacks over the same period of time than you would pre-patch (at 30%).
The haste from SnD is then multiplicative with haste from your gear.

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Old 02/11/09, 4:46 AM   #293
Xerop
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Mage
 
Burning Legion (EU)
A whack thought just arose in my mind, seeing this new free haste on SnD, and providing that LR still stays at 10% haste.

Combat builds will have severe difficulty doing a SnD/R rotation. The energy overflow from Combat Potency could very well push you deep into a xS/yR/zE rotation( which is happening already sometimes pre 3.0.9). Any thoughts on that?

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Old 02/11/09, 5:17 AM   #294
Ashere
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Khadgar (EU)
Originally Posted by Xerop View Post
A whack thought just arose in my mind, seeing this new free haste on SnD, and providing that LR still stays at 10% haste.

Combat builds will have severe difficulty doing a SnD/R rotation. The energy overflow from Combat Potency could very well push you deep into a xS/yR/zE rotation( which is happening already sometimes pre 3.0.9). Any thoughts on that?
The idea is to maintain your xS/yR rotation intact, and weave in a zE only when applicable. If at any one time you don't have the time/energy/CP's to weave in your zE while keeping the xS/yR part intact: simply don't do it. The rotation is still called a xS/yR/zE rotation, because it denotes what you'll generally do. But at times you have to track back or downgrade for a few seconds.

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Old 02/11/09, 9:24 AM   #295
Onodrim
Piston Honda
 
Human Rogue
 
Aggramar (EU)
Originally Posted by Pinch View Post
Nitpicking here, but it's not "haste off" your weapon speed; This is misleading. With the SnD buff (at 40%), you will perform 7.7% more attacks over the same period of time than you would pre-patch (at 30%).
The haste from SnD is then multiplicative with haste from your gear.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but unless I've misunderstood both you, Hallagenic and frmorrison, the latter is referring to the 10% passive haste increase to be introduced with the 3.10 re-work of Lightning Reflexes whereas you comment on the added 10% of Slice and Dice haste introduced with 3.09.

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Old 02/11/09, 6:17 PM   #296
genjaguar
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Mannoroth
Originally Posted by Pinch View Post
Nitpicking here, but it's not "haste off" your weapon speed; This is misleading. With the SnD buff (at 40%), you will perform 7.7% more attacks over the same period of time than you would pre-patch (at 30%).
The haste from SnD is then multiplicative with haste from your gear.
I believe that it still is a 10% increase in attacks but a 7.7% increase in white damage. 10% haste will always be 10% more attacks.

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Old 02/11/09, 6:28 PM   #297
theldaran
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Garrosh
Originally Posted by songster View Post
None of these have anything to do with the reason haste is weak for a rogue. The reason is that our yellow damage is limited by our energy income, not by GCS, cast time, swing speed or anything else. This means that haste only benefits our white melee damage and our IP progs, which collectively are around 50% of the total. By contrast, most of a caster's total output benefits from haste, with the only exception being dots.
Re-read the post you just responded to; he just finished saying that one of the reasons that haste was weak for us was that it does not have any effect on our yellow damage, as it does with casters who have cast times or channeling times for their yellow damage.

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Old 02/11/09, 6:48 PM   #298
songster
Chief Passenger
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
Originally Posted by theldaran View Post
Re-read the post you just responded to; he just finished saying that one of the reasons that haste was weak for us was that it does not have any effect on our yellow damage, as it does with casters who have cast times or channeling times for their yellow damage.
Yes, but the reasons he gave for that were as follows:

(1) haste does not lower GCD
(2) our abilities are instants
(3) rogues are not close to the hit cap

Observant people will note that (1) and (2) are actually the same thing, and that none of the three actually have anything to do with why haste does not affect our yellow damage. The reason haste does not affect our yellow damage (modulo second order effects from Combat Potency etc) is that it's limited by our energy income, which the OP didn't mention. GCD, instant cast abilities and hit capping have nothing to do with it. Even if they changed things so that haste did affect the GCD, gave us cast-time spells, and put us at the hit cap, haste would still be a very weak stat for us, because it does not affect our energy regeneration rate.

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Old 02/11/09, 7:05 PM   #299
Starfox
King Hippo
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Destromath (EU)
Originally Posted by genjaguar View Post
I believe that it still is a 10% increase in attacks but a 7.7% increase in white damage. 10% haste will always be 10% more attacks.
140% / 130% = 1.0769 ~ 7.7% increase

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Old 02/11/09, 7:19 PM   #300
genjaguar
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Mannoroth
Originally Posted by Starfox View Post
140% / 130% = 1.0769 ~ 7.7% increase
Yes it's a 7.7% increase in white damage from slice and dice. However you still receive 10% more attacks than pre-patch.

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