That's a mut parse, but I do want to see a combat daggs version.

Seeing as poisons are such a big percentage of our damage, it seems plausible (although I haven't punched the numbers) that removing dagger normalization altogether would fix the current predicaments.

Slow weapons gain more from mutilate to compensate for less poison damage, and faster weapons get more from poison to compensate for less punch on specials.

I would love to see how the dps of various daggers turns out with this fix, without any other tweaking.

g

Somehow I doubt that would fix anything, back when normalization was implemented there were several 2.0 daggers (Shanker, R14 weapons to be exact), Backstab mechanics also favored Slow weapons heavily (and still do to a extent), but Mutilate is not bound by such rules.
True WD would lose some of it's mutilate dps, but would it be enough to dethrone poisons?
Either way it would be overall a DPS nerf to rogues.
And I doubt that's what Blizzard or us would want.

Thats from Simple Questions and Answers, I was about to answer it, but than it raised more questions for me. Hope some of you can help.

I had a similar question, which I was able to get the answer for in the last couple of raid runs. With my non-BiS gear, with standard buffs available to me, I can reach 3k-ish DPS on standard bosses. There are certain boss fights where this drops significantly because time on target reaches a low point. Those that require constant restart of SnD, hectic activity(my DPS is low, so it's better for me to help with adds than on boss) or just bad luck with stuns that force HfB drops and just low rupture uptime because of your low time on target. I wanted to know if I could switch to the new Shiv build because the fights that are not melee friendly would overcome the 100 DPS loss that Shiv spec was spreadsheeted to give me. Well, atleast in Naxx, it's not worth it. You definitely do get in a couple percent of what the spreadsheet says. However, if dual spec was easy enough, it would definitely be a DPS increase to switch to a spec that was lower top end DPS but higher low end DPS. But I dont think such a spec really exists for rogues anymore. There really isnt too much difference between specs anymore. More haste and less overall damage contribution of yellow components is the trend. Maybe its intentional because in order to keep the promise of Ulduar being more challenging and interesting, everything is more melee unfriendly(more movement and other activities). Maybe one of the folks with better overall understanding of the specs can chime in. I'm not sure how HaT spec stands in this.

Actually, it would be nice if the folks with better understanding of multiple specs answered this. What does 3.1/Dual Spec bring to a PVE rogue that did not want to use the second spec for PVP. And I dont mean a gimmick second spec to optimise trash DPS(unless said FoK spec was a really necessary part of a lot of the new boss encounters). I mean a second spec that was unique in some way? What do you envision the second slot for? Im curious as to what I should start prepping for so I do not have to spend money I don't have on mats and items when 3.1 launches instead of getting for free now.

Am I wrong that in 3.1, Combat and MUT specs are close enough, that hopefully, except for RNG on weapons, there is not much difference for a raider? With less yellow damage in 3.1, what exactly differentiates any spec? Both are sustained DPS now? Except for Savage Combat, that would be horrible if only reason. Am I getting tripped on the fact a druid that has been playing for a while, can switch between ranged and melee? I can think of lots of reasons for other classes, even hunters/mages(better snares/aoes, for the challenging multi-mob boss fights). Though maybe thats more wishfull thinking on encounter design for the other pure classes.

In short, Why would you need the second slot if not for PVP? Its been made somewhat clear that its for lvl 80s only and probably for higher end 80s is what they have in mind. So what would a raiding PVE rogue do with the second slot?

Savage Combat seems a horrible reason because the spec itself doesn't bring anything. You don't bring a Pali for Imp Blessing of Might, you bring them for everything their spec and class brings. SC is just one passive buff. Yes more DPS, but that's no reason to dedicate an entire second talent slot for it. Maybe that sounds like QQ about rogues are just DPS and do not bring anything. So I dont want to get tripped up on that.

About the two very distinct PVE specs. That was my main goal in asking about 3.1 changes. With the increase in haste, reliance on faster weapons and the fact that both specs are so much base damage(ie you dont press a button for it, white+poison). What exactly differentiates the two except a slight(maybe significant for some) playstyle? I really dont see any difference in both being a competitive all around PVE spec. Is there any reason to bring one versus the other? A frost mage with snare/aoes versus fire mage? That's more of what I mean. If both are competitive, you just pay 50 gold and respec to whatever suits your playstyle. What's the advantage of combat over mutilate for any given encounter? I don't see any, in current view of 3.1 changes. That's fine with me though, because there is Sub spec too. I don't know how HaT plays. It just seems too gimmicky. Does anyone see that as being an advantage anywhere? There sure are alot of survival talents, that you can possibly still take w/o DPS loss.

I've been having really bad luck with RNG for my current spec. If there is a 2nd spec I should be getting gear for in Uldaur, I really really need a head start. PVE raiding rogue. Maybe the answer is the same as its always been for pure class. Go PVP?

You're essentially repeating your question that I already attempted to answer. I gave you reasons. I think Savage Combat could well be enough of a buff to warrant a re-spec to it given the variables expressed in my previous post. Clearly you disagree. That's fine, but repeating the question won't change the answer.

One more point though: yes sometimes you do bring a specific spec for its buff, not matter how much Blizzard wants us to move away from that. That's what min-maxing and progression fights are all about. For that matter, if trash isn't an AoE-fest in Ulduar and actually somewhat challenging, I see Combat as having a distinct advantage there (BF/KS and easier to get rotation going).

I dont know where your coming from. We do bring a rogue spec'd savage combat because it does bring somethign to the raid. In the current roflstomp ease of content its not as important, but we will be bringing every synergy we can to maximize raid damage on progression content. And when building a raid, we will bring a paladin for imp blessing of might if we have other blessings covered. We will bring a boomkin if we dont have a shad priest, we will shuffle in an imp might paladin if our warriors are covering commanding. It all depends on who is online, what content we are doing, etc etc, but we tend to maximize synergies.

About all three responses. That's what I was looking for. Not the answer I was expecting, but it answered it. I have not played Combat in a long while, nor ever tried the Sub HaT spec in raid. I was hoping the second slot would be used for something more dynamic in nature. Except for saving on the cost of glyphs and 50 gold respecilization cost you're all basically saying that the Dual Talent specilization feature does not do anything for a Rogue. It takes literally one or two minutes to go from MUT to Combat. That is done on a per raid basis. I was hoping something more along the lines of a Warrior switching between Prot and Fury or any healer hybrid switching between DPS and HPS for tougher content. That's not a proper example, because Rogues are a pure class. Maybe a Mage example. Switching between an improved Blizzard/Snare/Aoe build and a Frostfire single target spec because instead of a single monolithic boss there is a boss encounter more like the PVP fight in Magisters Terrace(the 3rd boss encounter). Right now, there is no reason for an additional? Am I wrong about that? Im not being negative. I just can't afford all the respecs, so I have not tried any of the other specs in a long time. I remember BF and KS being nice on the multi mob pulls in regular heroics, but I have no problem with DPS in regular heroics as MUT either.

If you are after a situational change then sure.
Lets say you need more healers, have the ret go holy and the rogue go muti with MP with no waiting for hs and respec.
Arms warriors go Prot for an offtank then rogues go combat. Rogues go HaT for fast Expose Armor and all warriors to TG for max dps.

I think you can make a long list of choices that will become avaible for the raid without the downtime respec takes.
Not to mention extra costs in glyphs.

The reason for dual spec in PvE is that it will give you flexibility faster.

Depends how easy it is to change spec (how many people summoning, for how long), and how much it costs for the summonable Lexicon. If both these are on the low end, then it might actually be possible to have a trash spec and a boss spec. If there's a significant cost to it, or it takes a significant time to summon the Lexicon, then that's just more trouble than it's worth.

Assuming it's possible to have a trash spec, and assuming Ulduar trash is AoEable (neither of which is a given), then I'll use my second spec for a hybrid assassination / combat spec something like the following:

37/34/0
34/37/0

Note that these are extremely silly specs, and the single target damage will suck. The sole purpose of them is to focus on talents that buff poison damage, energy income for FoK spam, plus Blade Flurry for more AoE damage. The first variant gets basically every single talent that helps FoK, these being Malice, glyphed Vigor, poison talents, CB, Murder, Overkill and 2/3 Focused Attacks in assassination, plus DW spec, Precision, CQC, WEx, BF, AR and Vitality in combat. Every other point is effectively filler. The second variant drops the Focused Attacks points for Throwing Weapon specialisation - rapid shutdown of any group of casters. If you run without an elemental shaman, you'll want to spec for Deadly Brew (as shown) and use WP, to give 3% crit to all the rest of your AoE DPS.

I may be coming off a little strong, but I dont think that's what's going to happen. The types of changes you are talking about happen before a raid gets started. Pick any class and spec. Take Rogue/MUT. The rogue is not going to have two MUT specs each with and without MP. The Druid is going to have Bear/Tree, Bear/Owl... With whatever they thought was necessary. The kind of change you are talking about is most likely gonna to require money to adjust that the spec to match what's needed by the raid. You decide before you set foot into the raid instance what buffs you have.

I was trying to find out how I would use my dual slots to be able to counter situations once the raid has started. Even right now, the off tanks switch gear for DPS when they're unncessary, but in 3.1 they'll be able to switch talents to become real DPS. What would I as a rogue be able to do, to help my raid for that type of dynamic event? Maybe a palidan and priest switch rolls so that shadow priest can provide needed edge for that encounter while the holy palidan takes over healing.

With my understanding of the rogue class and upcoming changes, all rogue trees are basically competitive(lets dump HaT in here) and only different in style. While every Combat rogue will take Savage Combat, just as all Rets take Imp Might??, switching on a buff isnt what dual specs allow other classes.

I was hoping a different tree would allow us to counter a different situation. In retrospect, hasn't all Rogue changes so far been to make every DPS tree competitive in raid. Its not fair of me to compare a Holy Priest and Shadow Priest versus what utility a Mutilate and Combat Rogue each deliver. That was my mistake. I was hoping maybe we would need something along the lines of a PVP spec(extra survivability, burst damage and improved CC) for some encounters. But thats just encounter design. I really was hoping you'd tell me (i'm MUT) Combat is better on these boss fights.