Just going to drop some statis parses down from our Patchwerk testing on the PTR tonight...
On the first fight you ToTT'ed 8 times, the other two rogues used it once and thrice respectively.
Also you used IP/DP, I assume because of Improved Poisons being still bugged?
Also both combat rogues gained Adrenaline Rush twice, KS and BF thrice.
So I wouldn't say mutilate is far behind, it's simply small details that as a whole lowered your dps beyond expected (that and bugged talents/lacking glyphs).
Still if you go again, could you try either trading ToTT or not using it, spec IIV, also if possible gem to expertise cap.
On maces, if I manage to get enough people online for 25man test, I have a pair of Split Greathammers I'm anxious to test.
Edit: Looking at those Instant Poison numbers, it's clear that Improved Poisons is still bugged, and that means Mutilate rogues are currently losing a significant portion of their damage.
So until the next PTR patch it is probably best not to draw any conclusions from Mutilate.
Combat is shaping up to be great though.
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
On the first fight you ToTT'ed 8 times, the other two rogues used it once and thrice respectively.
Also you used IP/DP, I assume because of Improved Poisons being still bugged?
Also both combat rogues gained Adrenaline Rush twice, KS and BF thrice.
So I wouldn't say mutilate is far behind, it's simply small details that as a whole lowered your dps beyond expected (that and bugged talents/lacking glyphs).
Still if you go again, could you try either trading ToTT or not using it, spec IIV, also if possible gem to expertise cap.
On maces, if I manage to get enough people online for 25man test, I have a pair of Split Greathammers I'm anxious to test.
Edit: Looking at those Instant Poison numbers, it's clear that Improved Poisons is still bugged, and that means Mutilate rogues are currently losing a significant portion of their damage.
So until the next PTR patch it is probably best not to draw any conclusions from Mutilate.
Combat is shaping up to be great though.
As mut was using IP main DP off.
Expertise cap is something I'd like to have but don't have the gear to support at the moment (no bracers/chest), and I hadn't really been keeping up on Mutilate specs, but I'll give 51/18/2 a shot next time. About tricks, we were supposed to have a rotation and I guess it fell apart, but I still topped the meters when I was combat and I was the only one using it. And yeah, I forgot about imp poisons being bugged as well.
Thanks for the web stats posted above, great to see rogues all in the top 5.
Has anyone on the PTR with a mace set been able to spec maces and try the patchwerk fight as well...? Were you numbers close to the 6k+ that Pinch posted with the combat sped they were using?
I specced maces on ptr for our patchwerk tests.
I have far from optimal gear on my ptr character, missing 4/5 best in slots, was using the blacksmithing mace mainhand and the split greathammer offhand. Also I received no tricks.
I was pushing around 5.6k over 5 minute fights.
Pinch, btw your hunters shouldeve specced BM, ours were pushing 8k dps (pets doing 4kdps themselves) lol.
I specced mutilate for a pull without the glyphs and did 4.8k dps.
I have far from optimal gear on my ptr character, missing 4/5 best in slots, was using the blacksmithing mace mainhand and the split greathammer offhand. Also I received no tricks.
I was pushing around 5.6k over 5 minute fights.
Pinch, btw your hunters shouldeve specced BM, ours were pushing 8k dps (pets doing 4kdps themselves) lol.
I specced mutilate for a pull without the glyphs and did 4.8k dps.
BM hunters are a little silly on test realm. My results on council were about the same as what pinch posted on the Patchwerk Test dummy. As 15/51/5 CG/WD I was riding 6.3-6.6k dps.
BM hunters are a little silly on test realm. My results on council were about the same as what pinch posted on the Patchwerk Test dummy. As 15/51/5 CG/WD I was riding 6.3-6.6k dps.
On the CG/WD note, a rough hack shows 20/51(with 2/5 Improved Poison and 3/3 Vile) as superior to 15/51/5, with 4/5/5
and 5/5 cycles being very close (5/5 behind with 15dps), so that's another thing to consider.
Then again until Improved Poison is fixed there's no point in testing it.
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
I haven't really found much after searching thus far on ideal combat glyph usage in 3.1 and also whether or not instant overtakes wound now. I did some short(too small of a sample size) dummy testing and found insiginificant difference, yet there were others around and differing dummy debuffs. I did replace the ss glyph with the AR to try it out, but I need like an unaltered dummy for an hour to feel any stability. I did seem to be easily capable of keeping snd up with a 4s/5r/5En cycle, yet was still unable to really determine poison values and optimal placement. Yet i did notice that it was tough to have a 5point dp back up during AR if it wasn't Mainhanded.
I haven't really found much after searching thus far on ideal combat glyph usage in 3.1 and also whether or not instant overtakes wound now. I did some short(too small of a sample size) dummy testing and found insiginificant difference, yet there were others around and differing dummy debuffs. I did replace the ss glyph with the AR to try it out, but I need like an unaltered dummy for an hour to feel any stability. I did seem to be easily capable of keeping snd up with a 4s/5r/5En cycle, yet was still unable to really determine poison values and optimal placement. Yet i did notice that it was tough to have a 5point dp back up during AR if it wasn't Mainhanded.
SS glyph is pretty significant, I couldn't imagine replacing it. SnD seems the obvious choice, to me. The extra 5 seconds of AR with the glyph was quite noticeable, and I feel is quite worth it.
I want to give the Killing Spree glyph a shot too sometime, but unfortunately, KS suffers from me not wanting to use it on certain fights because of the loss of control.
With IIV I can see no reason why dropping RS wouldn't be better than Opportunity. Currently I have often found myself with Rupture at 3-6 seconds left, SnD at 10+ and energy at 90+ due to lucky RS and FA procs.
Without RS, IIV cycles will become even tighter and well, easier.
A simple Mutilate x2->Finisher+Refresh HfB. (As opposed to the current Mutilate x2->Finisher, Maybe sometimes a 2nd Finisher->HfB Refresh).
P.S. Some logs of IIV in action can be found here (IIV since 9th of Feb).
Since you've respeced combat was this the build you were using for IIV? 54/15/2
Thanks in advance.
PS I searched and IIV is not search able since it's not 4 letters long.
"I'm the best there is at what i do, bub, and what i do ain't pretty"
SS glyph is pretty significant, I couldn't imagine replacing it. SnD seems the obvious choice, to me. The extra 5 seconds of AR with the glyph was quite noticeable, and I feel is quite worth it.
I want to give the Killing Spree glyph a shot too sometime, but unfortunately, KS suffers from me not wanting to use it on certain fights because of the loss of control.
I don't see why the current SnD/Rupture/SS glyph situation would change.
Originally Posted by Solanthious
Since you've respeced combat was this the build you were using for IIV? 54/15/2
Thanks in advance.
PS I searched and IIV is not search able since it's not 4 letters long.
51/13/7 This is IIV (Short for Instant/Instant, Eviscerate), in live.
I don't see why the current SnD/Rupture/SS glyph situation would change.
Whats your take on the new KS glyph? With the upcoming changes to KS with increased 20% damage wouldn't it be nuts to have it only on little over 1 minute cooldown? I know there are situations where you dont want to use it due to loosing control of your character but i see myself using it a lot on bossfights and trash for that matter, and I think its a significant boost in our DPS as combat.
Whats your take on the new KS glyph? With the upcoming changes to KS with increased 20% damage wouldn't it be nuts to have it only on little over 1 minute cooldown? I know there are situations where you dont want to use it due to loosing control of your character but i see myself using it a lot on bossfights and trash for that matter, and I think its a significant boost in our DPS as combat.
While Killing Spree is quite a high value dps talent, I doubt that a extra 20% of damage during it's short duration, would turn out to be better than ~~70dps that each of the SS/Rupture/SnD Glyphs provide.
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
While Killing Spree is quite a high value dps talent, I doubt that a extra 20% of damage during it's short duration, would turn out to be better than ~~70dps that each of the SS/Rupture/SnD Glyphs provide.
Think I explained it wrong
The glyph dosent add 20% damage thats just the change they make to KS, the glyph reduces the cooldown of KS by 45 sec which is a huge amount IMO, maybe enough to change the SnD glyph out for it, needs some testing though.
Before I start, I'd like to point out, that I'm not especially good at math; and I'm comfortable with that, so please feel free to point and laugh if my elementary school napkin math is based on some ridiculous assumptions and has gone completely haywire.
With my current settings in the spreadsheet, the Killing Spree talent point alone yields around 107 dps. If I apply the inherent patch 3.1 modifier, the number's 128,4 dps. (107 dps x 1,20). This is applicable every 120 seconds.
With the patch 3.1 glyph for this ability, we'd be able to reduce its cooldown to 75 seconds. Now, strictly looking at percentages, that'd mean we're able to activate the ability 37,5% more frequently (100%/120secs x 45secs), which, all things being equal, would increase the dps contribution of Killing Spree from 128,4 dps to (128,4 dps x 1,375) 176,55 dps. In and of itself, the glyph would then provide (176,55 dps - 128,4 dps) 48,15 dps.
So, provided that each of the SnD, Rupture and Sinister Strikes glyphs do in fact provide more than 75 dps, the Killing Spree glyph wouldn't be worth picking up.
However, I'm not at all sure that the above math is even valid; also, it represents a very linear and stringently mathematical way of looking at things. From a practical point of view, however, in a 180 second long boss fight (which the spreadsheet is currently set to by default), the glyph would allow us to use Killing Spree three times in stead of two times without the glyph. If that's factored in, the Killing Spree glyph might very well come out ahead of the Sinister Strike or Rupture counterparts; even if bosses in Ulduar last longer than they do in Naxx. Someone more spreadsheet and math savvy than me would be far better at confirming or denying that hypothesis, though.
While Killing Spree is quite a high value dps talent, I doubt that a extra 20% of damage during it's short duration, would turn out to be better than ~~70dps that each of the SS/Rupture/SnD Glyphs provide.
The bugged AR glyph, reducing KS to 1 min was easily worth the glyph slot. With the buff to KS, it only gets better.
wow, you take fleet footed instead of murder... it boggles the mind.
and on the second build you take fleet foot instead of improved evis for an evis build?
*stands back in amazement*
You know on live Murder works for 3 out of 18 fights currently, right? Though if I wanted Fleet Footed (which I probably will in 3.1), I'd consider taking points out of Turn the Tables or Lethality. Once again this goes back to my belief that Lethality should be 3/3 for the same benefit.
Before you start to drift, and your soul begins to scream.
I just wanted to tell you, that you're listening to a dream.
Currently on PTR, I am doing about 8-10 percent more damage with combat, even with unenchanted weapons and 387 weapon skill in swords. That coupled with the convience of not having to keep rupture up to use my 51 pt talent (HfB) makes combat much more appealing to me than mutilate spec unless something changes. I have a few questions about combat:
1) All things being equal (gear rating on weapons etc) what will generate the most dps? Swords, Maces, Fist/dagger
2) In the guides on this site for combat rotations I do not see bladeflurry, Killing Spree, AR etc. Is it safe to assume to maximize dps you would use these everytime they are up?
3) I have read here many times that stacking self buffs are optimal for DPS. Does this include bladeflurry + KS or do they not stack?
1) All things being equal (gear rating on weapons etc) what will generate the most dps? Swords, Maces, Fist/dagger
2) In the guides on this site for combat rotations I do not see bladeflurry, Killing Spree, AR etc. Is it safe to assume to maximize dps you would use these everytime they are up?
3) I have read here many times that stacking self buffs are optimal for DPS. Does this include bladeflurry + KS or do they not stack?
1. This is still undecided I believe, though until this point, they've largely been considered relatively equal. The mace spec may change that though - stay tuned.
2. Yep. Especially on tank-n-spank fights, blow your cooldowns right away, Vanish to wipe your threat, and lay into the mob again and blow the cooldowns again when they come back up.
3. Yes, they do stack, but on a boss, that's not a bright idea. Generally you want to stack Blade Flurry and Adrenaline Rush with a Use: trinket to get the most out of the buff it grants. Killing Spree WILL hit additional mobs if you use it while Blade Flurry is active, but that will end up wasting your Blade Flurry against a single target.
This is applicable every 120 seconds.
-...- we'd be able to reduce its cooldown to 75 seconds. -...- that'd mean we're able to activate the ability 37,5% more frequently (100%/120secs x 45secs), which, all things being equal, would increase the dps contribution of Killing Spree from 128,4 dps to (128,4 dps x 1,375) 176,55 dps. In and of itself, the glyph would then provide (176,55 dps - 128,4 dps) 48,15 dps.
If I read this correctly you are falling for some common mistakes when calculating effects of reduced Cooldown on frequency.
When reducing a 120s CD by 45s it does indeed lose (45/120)*100%=37.5% of it's Cooldowntime. This however means it does now run with 62.5% Cooldowntime and can be used 100/62.5=1.6 times as often as before yielding 1.6 times the effect when other circumstances are ignored.
Or to calculate in a more intuitve fashion (that does not explain why your number is not the one that applies).
In the 120s of CD you would have without the glyph you can squeze in (120/75)=1.6 Killing Sprees.
Currently on PTR, I am doing about 8-10 percent more damage with combat, even with unenchanted weapons and 387 weapon skill in swords. That coupled with the convience of not having to keep rupture up to use my 51 pt talent (HfB) makes combat much more appealing to me than mutilate spec unless something changes. I have a few questions about combat:
1) All things being equal (gear rating on weapons etc) what will generate the most dps? Swords, Maces, Fist/dagger
2) In the guides on this site for combat rotations I do not see bladeflurry, Killing Spree, AR etc. Is it safe to assume to maximize dps you would use these every time they are up?
3) I have read here many times that stacking self buffs are optimal for DPS. Does this include bladeflurry + KS or do they not stack?
As combat you still want near 100% rupture uptime, it has a high energy to damage return especially with 2pc t7, Blood Splatter, and Mangle/Trauma debuff. Further, just want to add as has been mentioned in earlier posts that on a typical boss fight since you should have near 100% rupture uptime and bleeds will be provided by other classes, HfB shouldn't be inconvenient to keep up.
2. Use them when a trinket procs or at the same time with a haste potion, but don't wait so long on a trinket to proc that you don't maximize the number of times you can use your cooldowns for the duration of a fight.
3. I havn't specced combat for a long time, but if I recall correctly, you still do white attacks during KS. Since KS increases your damage output for its duration, it would be beneficially to use bladeflurry to get more attacks in via the haste effect, obviously even better if you can hit near by secondary targets with bladeflurry.
Last edited by ieatpaperbag : 03/02/09 at 11:02 AM.
Reason: spelling
This prompts the question: how many bosses in Ulduar are murderable?
Freya, Thorim, Hodir should be all Giants, I'm not sure about the Iron Council and Flame Leviathan is mechanical.
As for Yogg, since C'thun is "Uncategorized", it's hard to say. Depends on Blizzard.
And well since there's no alternative DPS talents to be taken for those two points, I'd say it's better to have Murder than to worry about respec'ing.
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
03/01/09, 10:29 PM
Similar Threads
