3.1 Rogue Changes - Early Preview - Page 3

Phantomine · 02/05/09, 8:42 AM

Why not removing "Improved Sinister Strike" completely and lowering Sinister Strike cost to 40. Those 2 Points could then be used for Lightning Reflexes.
For a Fist/Sword combat build, that would mean we need to free 1 more point from another talent to have 3/3 Lightning Reflexes. E.g. 1 point from Weapon Expertise (there is a lot of Expertise on items anyway).

I'm currently Fist/Sword combat with Calamity's Grasp/Hailstorm, and I would really like to keep those two ...

sanelunatic · 02/05/09, 8:59 AM

So, assuming these changes make it into live, what would you guys think of a combat build that takes the poison talents? Specifically: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...h=192016000000

The cycle would be 1s/5r/5n, Dp/Ip, slow MH mace fast OH dagger.

It seems to me that picking up the two +haste talents would greatly increase the scaling of poisons and even with the +damage bonus killing spree doesn't seem like a major talent to lose, and Prey on the Weak has always seemed lackluster due to the requirement of having more hp than the boss. Additionally, and this is speculation, with a nebulous unannounced change to haste scaling (that would make it a better stat for all melee) having two talents that increase your melee haste would increase the scaling of haste further, making the spec even better.

Disquette · 02/05/09, 9:05 AM

From a mutiliate perspective...

1) Solo grinding just got worse
2) I gaze longingly at lightning reflexes being just out of reach. Nice talent!
3) 5 and 10 mans will stay about the same dps-wise except on single-bosses, which will show a slight increase, with more management to keep it that way (target switching, having to apply bleeds before reactivating HfB)
4) raiding dps just got a pretty nice bump, though I really don't like relying on other classes or drops and restarts of rupture to reactivate HfB, even if the dps increase is there.
5) I'm anxiously awaiting more info, hoping they'll have something for a 3rd solid glyph for mutiliate.

Lieska · 02/05/09, 9:18 AM

The HfB change makes it even more urgent that they do something to revamp the Expose Armor application mechanics, though. Juggling EA and the new HfB in a CttC rotation sounds pretty nightmarish, especially since situations where you need to Expose are also the ones where you're much more likely to depend on your own Rupture for the bleed requirement.

Flaw · 02/05/09, 9:24 AM

Originally Posted by songster

I don't think so. The wording has been a little unclear on this, however the likeliest interpretation in my opinion is that HfB is still a self-buff in that you hit the button and you buff yourself. However you can no longer stack it before the pull, since you require your target to be bleeding in order to cast the buff on yourself. I can't see any reason to believe it would fall off if the target is not bleeding. GC was quite specific that it requires target=bleeding in order to cast it.

What effect does this have in a long fight? Comparatively little, and it's a cpmsiderable buff. You still refresh HfB every 30 seconds, however there will be no penalty for letting it drop other than the uptime loss. It costs the same to restart it as it would have to maintain it. To go with this, it's now 15% rather than 9%, so it's a straight up 6% damage increase.

The only time there might be a problem is is your Rupture drops immediately before you need to refresh HfB and there are no other bleeds on the target. i.e. there are no other rogues, no warriors, no feral druids and no hunter pets in your party. This is unlikely in a raid situation, to say the least! Even in the unlikely event that you lack all these other classes in the party, it isn't a problem. Let's say your HfB needs refreshing, and the target is not bleeding. What do you do? You hit Rupture, and then use HfB after the GCD, using the energy returned from Relentless Strikes plus the extra second of normal regen. Therefore, even in the worst case scenario, the only loss is one second of HfB uptime, with zero energy loss.

Where it may have a slight effect is in trash pulls, since you won't be able to stack it before the pull. This thus costs you 9% off the damage of your first FoK (or Mutilate if it's a small pull). FoK is borderline overpowered as it stands, so this is no big deal. If you use a feral or warrior tank as your main assist, you should be able to get HfB up within a couple of seconds anyway, from their own bleeds. And with HfB now being 15% rather than 9%, as long as you get it up within the first ~half of the pull, you still end up seeing a net benefit.

Conclusion: rogues have nothing whatsoever to complain about from the HfB change - it's a playability and damage buff, done in such a manner as to not make it desirable for PvP. Nice work.

As Aldriana says, this undoubtedly isn't all there is - I would expect to see more substantial changes to Subtlety, for a start. However, that's likely to take a bit more work, so I'm not surprised they have nothing to show us at this point. Ditto for the poison proc / weapon speed itemisation issues.

The 6% increase is nice but I don't like the bleed dependency at all and there is a possibility that this change could cause a dps loss, albeit a small window, but a loss is still a loss.

I personally won't have a problem managing any rotation changes but I really see no issue with HfB in it's current form.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

• Andeh · 02/05/09, 9:56 AM

I'm not sure why people are getting so worked up about "OMG but you need to have a bleed on your target." We're not the only ones to bleed things; Warriors of all flavors, Feral Druids, and of course other Rogues all use bleeds. With Warriors especially the bleed (Deep Wounds) will be up essentially 100%, so you don't need to worry a window of reduced damage.

With regard to crowding in the Combat tree, it doesn't really seem that bad if you play with the calculator. You can make a Sword or Mace build that gets every raid DPS talent and still has 1 early point of filler in Endurance. The same goes for a Fist build, except that you can put that 1 point of filler into a deeper talent if you'd like, such as Throwing Spec. You will only have a problem if you try to mix & match a Fist/Sword build, and I think its understandable that they'd like us not to do that.

CSstylez · 02/05/09, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by stressball

I am not sure if I like this part - I am in a 10-man raiding guild and we can't always bring a hunter to the raid, and we don't even have a hunter in the guild. One class shouldn't be "dependant" on other classes, imo.

GC has said in other places that we are one of the most dependent class out there. Our dps is completely tied to the buffs we get in a 25 man. There is a huge difference when I have kings and when my raid does not have kings. I can be in the top 8 with kings and lucky to be in the top 12 without kings. I think for a huge chunk of our dps, it is at the mercy of the buffs we get from others.

As far as I see these proposed changes, and I know there are more out there, none of this addresses movement and dps.

Tristone · 02/05/09, 10:26 AM

So they're nerfing the PvP burst from a talent they already know isn't used for PvP. It's kinda contradictory.

They outlined changes not announced yet as their solution to pvp burst, not the HfB change.

Someone else might have mentioned this already, but I really think Fist/dagger Combat will shine in 3.1. Removing points from the fillers results in only one talent point loss and for me that would be weapon expertise, since I struggle staying under the cap without the talents as it is. In addition to that the buff to Savage combat is something our raid group can really use, as we have no arms warrior. I also feel the spec adds more fun to min-maxing in the use of the CDs, since KS is more powerful, and the interaction of more haste talents with heroism. Overall, I'm very pleased with the changes.

onizemus · 02/05/09, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by sanelunatic

Prey on the Weak has always seemed lackluster due to the requirement of having more hp than the boss.

Prey on the Weak Rank 5

Your critical strike damage is increased by 20% when the target has less health than you (as a percentage of total health).

So in most situations this buff is up most of the time, unless it is a situational fight like Saph, were life is going up and down nonstop.

• gwystyl · 02/05/09, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by songster

Where it may have a slight effect is in trash pulls, since you won't be able to stack it before the pull. This thus costs you 9% off the damage of your first FoK (or Mutilate if it's a small pull). FoK is borderline overpowered as it stands, so this is no big deal. If you use a feral or warrior tank as your main assist, you should be able to get HfB up within a couple of seconds anyway, from their own bleeds. And with HfB now being 15% rather than 9%, as long as you get it up within the first ~half of the pull, you still end up seeing a net benefit.

Conclusion: rogues have nothing whatsoever to complain about from the HfB change - it's a playability and damage buff, done in such a manner as to not make it desirable for PvP. Nice work.

FoK is not overpowered as it stands. It's value is very much inflated by the fact that all trash pulls are over in 10s or less. When coupled with Overkill, that makes FoK look pretty darned shiny. When you're chain pulling, can't re-stealth and can't even top up your energy bar, the AoE looks mediocre. That said, I still hate the concept of rogue AoE and couldn't care less if they put the 10s cooldown back on it and made it a tool to help tanks pick up an multi-mob pull.

I'm not sure what I think about the HfB change. It seems clunkier and more encumbering which is something it didn't really need. It also makes us less autonomous in a raid setting and more dependent on others. Must we always be relegated to only operating at potential when a host of other people set us up?

Tristone · 02/05/09, 10:44 AM

I'm not sure what I think about the HfB change. It seems clunkier and more encumbering which is something it didn't really need. It also makes us less autonomous in a raid setting and more dependent on others. Must we always be relegated to only operating at potential when a host of other people set us up?

This is the reason why I am this more interested in combat as opposed to Mutilate or SHAT. I think there is a line between class synergy and interdependence. Mutilate and SHAT seem to be heading towards the former, whereas Combat now provides a better buff for other classes and performs better as a standalone. (as well as 5 or 10 men content) I see this as a better buff for new content too. For the case of SHAT people in your group will be dying, and for mutilate, bleeds will be more likely to fall off targets.

iknaton · 02/05/09, 10:53 AM

I still don't understand why they put good 1.8 speed daggers when for all PvE builds the faster daggers are better. I think this is a consequence of the hate Blizzard has developped against rogue PvP burst. I would like to Mutilate with my Sister Revenge.

As for HfB, looks like it will be less annoying than the current constant button mashing. It would be interesing for some PvE fights and could be useful for PvP (without getting OP) if you can use bleeds on your target OR on you to activate it.

Kumar · 02/05/09, 10:53 AM

The Killing Spree change doesn't make sense, 20% more dmg when KS is active, and KS is active for those few seconds during which you pretty much don't have control of your Rogue.

PessimiStick · 02/05/09, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Kumar

The Killing Spree change doesn't make sense, 20% more dmg when KS is active, and KS is active for those few seconds during which you pretty much don't have control of your Rogue.

It gives +20% damage on 5 MH and 5 OH hits, as well as 1-2 white hits from each hand. It's just a minor buff to the damage you do during KS, it makes sense.

Neto- · 02/05/09, 10:57 AM

GC did say that they don't intend in making every pull an AOE pull; maybe in Ulduar we will go back to the single-target method.

Overall, the direction they're going for is interesting, and I'm quite happy with the announced changes so far. The Hunger for Blood change isn't bad at all: for one, it fixes having to maintain a 3-stack at all times, which was probably the cause of the annoyance some rogues were reporting, and two, it's 15% now. Sure, it's probably not so good for 5mans and 10mans where you lack a class that can put up bleeds that is not yourself, and I'd like to see an increase in duration if they're going to maintain this "requires a bleed to be usable" method specifically for this reason, but it surely does make HFB more user-friendly in 25mans.

With that said, I still have high expectations for the unannounced changes; from what they revealed so far, it seems like Mutilate will fall short on every fight where Murder isn't applicable, so there really needs to be a change to Murder. The improvement to Mace Specialization is great and all, but how good is it going to be? Disparity between Weapon Specializations are more of an inconvenience than flavor, even more so when weapon itemization (speed and itemlevel, more specifically) is considered.

Tinwhisker · 02/05/09, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Kumar

The Killing Spree change doesn't make sense, 20% more dmg when KS is active, and KS is active for those few seconds during which you pretty much don't have control of your Rogue.

It's an easy way to add some PvE DPS without adding PvP burst. This of course assumes most rogues will continue to use some Mutilate/Prep build for PvP even after 3.1; more changes to come though so this isn't guaranteed. I do think that Blizz is balancing on the idea that rogues will never go deep-deep into any tree for PvP.

I think the whole 1 talent point = 1% DPS is out the window for us though. Looks like the high ends of our trees are getting loading with PvE stuff to keep it out of reach for PvP.

Katria · 02/05/09, 11:00 AM

And Hailstorm just dropped for me Tuesday night and I enchanted with Berserking thinking I was done hunting for weapons until Uldar...

All in all, though, nice that they are following through with the buff to lightning reflexes, though 10% haste seems like a really huge buff. And I bet the AR cooldown is going down to 4 min, to better sync up with trinket use. Be nice to have it available for every other flurry as well, for trash and such. The boost to KS is nice for those bosses where we can use it...would be really nice if they could make it so your last hit is on the mob you started on.

I haven't tried mutilate, but with the change to HfB and dual-spec coming out I'll be giving it a try. Especially since I'll be hunting down at least one dagger anyways...bound to pick up a second by the time the patch comes out, and we don't currently have a mutilate rogue in the guild.

The buff to savage combat is most welcome...the lack of group utility of rogues has always been a bit of a sore spot for me. We benefit from almost all group buffs, yet provide so little.

Rogue dps is going to get a nice boost, be interesting to see where we fall when the dust settles as other classes are in for big changes as well.

Disquette · 02/05/09, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Andeh

I'm not sure why people are getting so worked up about "OMG but you need to have a bleed on your target." We're not the only ones to bleed things; Warriors of all flavors, Feral Druids, and of course other Rogues all use bleeds. With Warriors especially the bleed (Deep Wounds) will be up essentially 100%, so you don't need to worry a window of reduced damage.

I think the primary reason is that this is the first (?) time we've had to deal with a major ability that has to be managed as a dependency. In the past, buffs have either been there or not, and we don't have to alter our playstyle because of it.

Simply because you don't think that in your 25 mans you'll have an issue with having bleed debuffs up doesn't mean that other people who run in 10s with no warriors and no ferals won't have an issue (quite common on my server due to the DK population explosion).

It may be fine. It may be horrible, but we now may have to make different choices about our ability usage dependent up on procs or abilities that other people in the raid use. I'm sure some clever mod maker out there will make one for rogues called something like "Is bleeding / Is poisoned" and have a 2 light indicator thing that shows when you can Mutilate when your DP stack is gone and when you can HfB when your rupture is gone. Won't that be fun to have another set off pretty lights to watch instead of the fight itself.

Venomous · 02/05/09, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Katria

And Hailstorm just dropped for me Tuesday night and I enchanted with Berserking thinking I was done hunting for weapons until Uldar...

What would you be hunting for now though? Grasp/Hail should do us until Uldar still correct?

saytr79 · 02/05/09, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Venomous

What would you be hunting for now though? Grasp/Hail should do us until Uldar still correct?

Well they did mention that some of the changes may take place before 3.1. Not sure which changes though.

Flaw · 02/05/09, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Neto-

The Hunger for Blood change isn't bad at all: for one, it fixes having to maintain a 3-stack at all times, which was probably the cause of the annoyance some rogues were reporting, and two, it's 15% now. Sure, it's probably not so good for 5mans and 10mans where you lack a class that can put up bleeds that is not yourself, and I'd like to see an increase in duration if they're going to maintain this "requires a bleed to be usable" method specifically for this reason, but it surely does make HFB more user-friendly in 25mans.

I agree but I've never been a fan of dumbing things down for the masses, I watched it happen to every FPS I ever played and I'm sick to death of game developers destroying learning curves.

If people found it hard to manage then practice makes perfect and if all efforts fail, try another spec.

Originally Posted by Neto-

With that said, I still have high expectations for the unannounced changes; from what they revealed so far, it seems like Mutilate will fall short on every fight where Murder isn't applicable, so there really needs to be a change to Murder.

Definitely and hopefully that is something they're looking at.

berg · 02/05/09, 11:16 AM

The bleed dependency is definitely being over dramatized.

The new penalty for letting HfB drop for say 2 seconds is that for 2 seconds your white/poison/bleed damage will lose 15%.

The old penalty for letting HfB drop for 2 seconds was 60 energy and a 9/6/3% damage decrease while you built your stack back up.

The latter is clearly far more punitive.

Also I am sure I am not the only one who is terrified to ever let HfB drop below 2-3 seconds since sometimes it simply will not get refreshed. In the new system we get those 2-3 seconds back. In general we will be spending 5-10% less energy on HfB which is a buff in itself besides the extra 6%.

sanelunatic · 02/05/09, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by onizemus

Prey on the Weak Rank 5

Your critical strike damage is increased by 20% when the target has less health than you (as a percentage of total health).

So in most situations this buff is up most of the time, unless it is a situational fight like Saph, were life is going up and down nonstop.

Thank you; however, I'm perfectly capable of reading what talents do.

The only fight where this fight will have 100% uptime is, of course, patchwerk and, on patch, we can expect 5/5 of this talent to give us about 8% more dps... which is nice for a 5 point talent.

But on most fights I would expect this to have an 80% uptime dipping down to as low as 50% on fights such as, yes, saph... but also say on 3d sarth when vesperon's add is up. Which brings this talent down into the realm of most other talents... about 1%/point, and even worse on some encounters.

Let me clarify myself. I don't think Prey on the Weak is bad by any means, but I feel (and here's the crux, this is what my post was, in essence, about) that improved haste and haste scaling would make the poison damage talents in assassination outscale it.

Justandius · 02/05/09, 11:23 AM

What we also need to remember is that the buffs seen here may be completely countered by PvP nerfs. With GC stating that our burst will be nerfed I am more likely to believe that this first set of buffs will be what counter acts the "PvP nerfs" that are incoming.

So my exultation will be saved until I read the PvP nerfs and see a few more of the upcoming buffs. It's too early to see what is going to happen with our PvE dps yet.

songster · 02/05/09, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Neto-

GC did say that they don't intend in making every pull an AOE pull; maybe in Ulduar we will go back to the single-target method.

Overall, the direction they're going for is interesting, and I'm quite happy with the announced changes so far. The Hunger for Blood change isn't bad at all: for one, it fixes having to maintain a 3-stack at all times, which was probably the cause of the annoyance some rogues were reporting, and two, it's 15% now. Sure, it's probably not so good for 5mans and 10mans where you lack a class that can put up bleeds that is not yourself, and I'd like to see an increase in duration if they're going to maintain this "requires a bleed to be usable" method specifically for this reason,

You see, I just don't see this. Rupture uptime is close to 100%. Maintaining HfB is just not going to be a problem, and will be no more difficult than before. It will however (by design) be more difficult to get it up and running in the first place if there is no other source of bleeds. In practice the only difference will be that Mutilate rogues will need to open with Garotte rather than just charging in with Mutilate.

Where there will be a problem is in multi-mob pulls in small groups - getting a bleed onto the second mob in time to refresh HfB will be the issue. However, given that FoK > single-target damage for any number of mobs n >= 3, in practice the only situation where we'll be susbstantially disadvantaged is in two-mob pulls in 5-man dungeons. I think this is sufficient of a niche case that it's not worth complaining about.