Really curious as to how well a spec such as http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...5&version=9626 will stack up once maces gets a 10% haste buff. When I was on the PTR, it seemed like Rupture with 10% DMG from the Glyph, 30% From Blood Spatter, and 10% From Gear Bonuses didn't stack up to Eviscerate with no glyph. A few other rogues who were also testing noticed the same thing, I was fist/dagger 5pt SND, 5pt evis rotation. Seemed like over the course of 2 minutes+ Evis was outdping rupture by 30-35DPS. I tried the rupt/snd and evis when i can rotation first.
That is true now, but if it wasn't for the bleed requirement, there would be an argument to be made for taking HfB in a PvP build since your initial burst would be 15 or 18% higher. You wouldn't need Prep then if you took one of your opponents down every time in a short amount of time.
HfB right now on live gives you a 15% boost without the bleed requirement. Yet you see no one take it. The extra damage is more than offset by the fact that your survivability goes way down if you don't have Prep. Without all those escape abilities you won't survive very long at all, especially not against the Pally/DK teams that are so dominant currently in 2s. And in 3s or 5s burst is even less of a viable tactic.
Originally Posted by songster
I presume this means that every PvP rogue build has to take Overkill, Vigor and Deadly Brew. If so, don't you think that's also indicative of a problem? It's well established that burst kills and unavoidable CC are something they're trying to move away from.
Every Mutilate-based PvP build will take those talents, sure. But there are always going to be talents like that. You can't get away from talents that are extremely desirable to one application or another. And again, since 3.0.9 we are far from overpowered in the burst department.
Originally Posted by Tinwhisker
Basically, for Blizzard, the ends justify the means; as long as the final numbers come out right, it doesn't matter how you get there or how messed up the trees get along the way. It seems they assume they can just fix the problems that come up later as they appear.
And that is how we end up with a single talent point worth 18% of our damage or a talent like HaT. Both are single talents that are simply there to prop up the trees.
I'm sure they aren't happy with how HfB or HaT are designed. But sometimes you have to pick your battles. You can't always do complete redesigns of every talent tree.
I'm sure they aren't happy with how HfB or HaT are designed. But sometimes you have to pick your battles. You can't always to complete redesigns of every talent tree.
True enough, but if you find yourself fighting the same battle every patch then maybe time would be better spent in a redesign. Just to be clear, I'm not calling for one here; I doubt there's time or resources for that before 3.1.
HfB right now on live gives you a 15% boost without the bleed requirement. Yet you see no one take it. The extra damage is more than offset by the fact that your survivability goes way down if you don't have Prep. Without all those escape abilities you won't survive very long at all, especially not against the Pally/DK teams that are so dominant currently in 2s. And in 3s or 5s burst is even less of a viable tactic.
But right now, the energy cost of keeping HfB up in PvP is prohibitive (well... somewhat). Next patch, it will be a bleed requirement.
Maybe you're right. Maybe Prep would still be chosen over HfB, even if there was no requirement on it. But it's a huge gamble to take on Blizzard's part and they won't simply remove any requirement and pray HfB doesn't turn out to be OP'ed in PvP. Imagine the results if it turned out that way. And it's very hard to predict because of the nature of PvP combat.
I'm a PvE'er at heart, not a PvP'er so I'd love to see requirements removed as much as anyone else. I just don't see it happening, unless the rest of the tree changes.
With that solution though, you'll still have higher burst in PvP as the fight develops, and you can Kidney Shot, Vanish, Cheap Shot... etc, which is still something they want to avoid. They don't like it when someone is powerless. Burst in PvP isn't just on opening moves.
And how is the change they are currently doing any better? Garrote, HfB, vanish. All done, full bonus from HfB, just wait for the energy and go nuts. If HfB was passive and built up gradually over say 5 seconds of melee, then the only way to activate it is to stay voulnerable for whatever period of time the buildup takes.
Because Garrote isn't burst damage, which is used in PvP on openers. So nobody would use it. If HfB built up on hits, as you suggest, then we could burst AND get HfB.
Either way, debating what people do in PvP put aside, read my previous post just above. Maybe it wouldn't matter, maybe it would, but Blizzard won't gamble with a +18% talent. It's the rest of the tree that has issues.
But right now, the energy cost of keeping HfB up in PvP is prohibitive (well... somewhat). Next patch, it will be a bleed requirement.
Maybe you're right. Maybe Prep would still be chosen over HfB, even if there was no requirement on it. But it's a huge gamble to take on Blizzard's part and they won't simply remove any requirement and pray HfB doesn't turn out to be OP'ed in PvP. Imagine the results if it turned out that way. And it's very hard to predict because of the nature of PvP combat.
I'm a PvE'er at heart, not a PvP'er so I'd love to see requirements removed as much as anyone else. I just don't see it happening, unless the rest of the tree changes.
The cost of keeping HfB up will be the same pre or post patch. The only difference is you won't have to pre-stack it. But you can pre-stack your HfB before you even open, and then at that point it's the same cost, provided you don't let it drop. You really lose a lot by going for HfB instead of investing into Subtlety.
Originally Posted by ShadowEric
Because Garrote isn't burst damage, which is used in PvP on openers. So nobody would use it. If HfB built up on hits, as you suggest, then we could burst AND get HfB.
Either way, debating what people do in PvP put aside, read my previous post just above. Maybe it wouldn't matter, maybe it would, but Blizzard won't gamble with a +18% talent. It's the rest of the tree that has issues.
You use Garrote as an opener in many cases. Sometimes against casters. Sometimes against other stealthers, so on and so forth. You don't always just open with Cheap Shot (or Ambush).
But right now, the energy cost of keeping HfB up in PvP is prohibitive (well... somewhat). Next patch, it will be a bleed requirement.
Maybe you're right. Maybe Prep would still be chosen over HfB, even if there was no requirement on it. But it's a huge gamble to take on Blizzard's part and they won't simply remove any requirement and pray HfB doesn't turn out to be OP'ed in PvP. Imagine the results if it turned out that way. And it's very hard to predict because of the nature of PvP combat.
I'm a PvE'er at heart, not a PvP'er so I'd love to see requirements removed as much as anyone else. I just don't see it happening, unless the rest of the tree changes.
Next patch it will be a bleed and energy requirement. But people aren't speccing it for PvP with just an energy requirement. 15% is not enough to convince people to skimp on the Subtlety talents. Hunger For Blood is being restricted to prevent a problem that does not exist.
Before you start to drift, and your soul begins to scream.
I just wanted to tell you, that you're listening to a dream.
I think there's a major disconnect between the Rogue community and the Blizz Devs.
The Rogue community fights for balanced trees where certain talents are not grossly overpowered when compared to all others regardless of whether they can be taken together or not. Blizzards goal is to design/model the trees in such a way that they can predict the talents that rogues will pick for certain applications and give little thought as to which are more powerful when compared to others. Basically, for Blizzard, the ends justify the means; as long as the final numbers come out right, it doesn't matter how you get there or how messed up the trees get along the way. It seems they assume they can just fix the problems that come up later as they appear.
And that is how we end up with a single talent point worth 18% of our damage or a talent like HaT. Both are single talents that are simply there to prop up the trees.
Edit to say that this is probably why the Sub tree looks like a dumping ground for misc talents.
They also talk so much about wanting 51 point talents that are good but not required. The new HfB with glyph will absolutely be required when it accounts for so much rogue damage. It's been looking to me for awhile now that in WotLK Blizzard talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk when it comes to designing talents and abilities that fit into a large grand scheme.
For example, they could design Mutilate builds differently by making a change to or adding something to Overkill to make it more than just a mere requirement for Mutilate. Make it increase envenom damage or allow it to enhance rupture damage or lower the energy cost of abilities. Either way they're stacking so much on HfB now that it's going to end up being this amazing talent and when compared to the Combat and Sub 51 point talents makes them look like toys and half-assed tricks.
It seems to me a better option from a design standpoint would be to switch Overkill and HfB in the tree. HfB becomes a 3% gain to all damage and an additional X% Rupture damage but doesn't stack. Overkill in the 51 point spot allows it to stack up to 4 times and the glyph change to an extra 1% per application in addition to reducing opening moves energy cost from stealth.
This not only changes the burst damage of Mutilate rogues that are going 41/5/25 but also gives some variety in the mutilate builds you'll see in PvP since Overkill might actually entice some PvP rogues to go down the rest of the tree.
Really curious as to how well a spec such as [Combat Maces/Sword](edited for cleanliness) will stack up once maces gets a 10% haste buff. When I was on the PTR, it seemed like Rupture with 10% DMG from the Glyph, 30% From Blood Spatter, and 10% From Gear Bonuses didn't stack up to Eviscerate with no glyph. A few other rogues who were also testing noticed the same thing, I was fist/dagger 5pt SND, 5pt evis rotation. Seemed like over the course of 2 minutes+ Evis was outdping rupture by 30-35DPS. I tried the rupt/snd and evis when i can rotation first.
Most likely using duel weapon specs is a non valid option come 3.1. As you loose DPS from Lethality.
With the extra 10% haste you get from Maces(Braught up in post pre PTR but yet to be seen) you will find that simply going duel maces with 5/5 Mace spec switching from CC, will be the biggest DPS increase. Also note that everything we theorycraft in the end will be voided out, if there is a random Itemization come 3.1.(See [Calamity's Grasp] ) (Further emphasized by the possibility that using a slow weapon 2.70 or greater generates 100% proc rate on poisons applied to that weapon) I.E. what would be your main hand making it proc poisons not only on all white attacks performed but also all specials.
I am currently testing this but wont be for sure till they move wound to a PPM mechanic on the PTR.
Remember that what Rupture does for your DPS isn't necessarily big numbers, but rather a constant sustained dps that when coupled with Eviscerate while having Rupture up makes your dps even better. It is also unmitigated Bleeding Damage. Sure its quite possible to get a lucky string of RNG on a armor mitigated boss and outperform the damage received by rupture thru pure evis crit #'s. That exist now as it is in the game(HaT spec). But in reality the likelihood of you getting that RNG string on more than one random boss (In Combat Spec) isn't likely enough and the potential to cripple your overall dps is to great.
This (Assuming Maces recieve Haste) will be the spec most combat rogues will gravitate given optimal gearing/Itemization(another assumtion on our part)[Combat Build/Maces] Using what will most likely be 4/5/5 easiest maintanable rotation. Not sure if droping snd gliph would make 3/5/5 impossible or to close.
Also on equal note what weapons are you using my guess would be Dread/Hailstorm?
Some numbers from PTR test. I do not have number for Mutilate but from a little self-intuition i would say is isnt at the moment capable of the numbers from combat. From a few blue posts we can safely say we've probably got more buffs incoming, expecially from the Mutilate side of things.
Also we have yet to see the mechanic change that was talked about by blizzard devs. I do think it was a general melee mechanic change they said they would fix. This also came after the fact they said they were unhappy about melee haste and ArP. All this would lead to us being yet higher.
Also on equal note what weapons are you using my guess would be Dread/Hailstorm?
I'm using fist/dagger now on live with crimson steel/omen of ruin, haven't downed kel thuzad yet and no WD have dropped for us in nax yet.. Anyway, I was just throwing around some ideas. really curious to see if dread/split greathammer will outperform calamity's/wd given the mh dps of calamity's is much greater
Just curious if there are any forums that GC or any blizzard employee are actually hearing our claims out on? It seems to me that the rogue EJ community have alot to say and i'd like to assume that most of us agree with the suggested "fixes". I'd like to think that the PPM mechanic came solely from these forums which gives me hope that they do hear us. Has there been a thread with actual Blizz comments recently? Seems like the blue tracker discusses every class in great detail but the rogue ones get "Thanks for the report!"
Long time reader, first time writer blah blah blah
Originally Posted by Hallagenic
Most likely using duel weapon specs is a non valid option come 3.1. As you loose DPS from Lethality.
With the extra 10% haste you get from Maces(Braught up in post pre PTR but yet to be seen) you will find that simply going duel maces with 5/5 Mace spec switching from CC, will be the biggest DPS increase. Also note that everything we theorycraft in the end will be voided out, if there is a random Itemization come 3.1.(See [Calamity's Grasp] ) (Further emphasized by the possibility that using a slow weapon 2.70 or greater generates 100% proc rate on poisons applied to that weapon) I.E. what would be your main hand making it proc poisons not only on all white attacks performed but also all specials.
I am currently testing this but wont be for sure till they move wound to a PPM mechanic on the PTR.
Remember that what Rupture does for your DPS isn't necessarily big numbers, but rather a constant sustained dps that when coupled with Eviscerate while having Rupture up makes your dps even better. It is also unmitigated Bleeding Damage. Sure its quite possible to get a lucky string of RNG on a armor mitigated boss and outperform the damage received by rupture thru pure evis crit #'s. That exist now as it is in the game(HaT spec). But in reality the likelihood of you getting that RNG string on more than one random boss (In Combat Spec) isn't likely enough and the potential to cripple your overall dps is to great.
This (Assuming Maces recieve Haste) will be the spec most combat rogues will gravitate given optimal gearing/Itemization(another assumtion on our part)[Combat Build/Maces] Using what will most likely be 4/5/5 easiest maintanable rotation. Not sure if droping snd gliph would make 3/5/5 impossible or to close.
Also on equal note what weapons are you using my guess would be Dread/Hailstorm?
I had wondered this same thing. I've been playing mutilate for a while (even back in BC) simply because I like the assassination tree. If HfB is so hosed in the next patch then I'll go combat for the first time. I wondered about going maces (assuming they get haste) or with the fist / dagger approach. If Maces get haste, then it very well may be maces are better for DPS, not sure.
I also had a question about the best build. I've been toying with Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (Combat - Sub) and Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (Combat - Assassination). I really am not sure which would be better DPS (regardless of weapons). I think it would also depend on the poisons being used. I haven't been following the combat discussion very closely so I'm not sure if WP or IP is better. If it's WP then this isn't even an issue, if they're about the same then the extra procs on IP would be very nice.
One more related note on the Combat / Assassination build: Would it turn out to be too energy starved with RS in the Sub tree or not?
Has there been a thread with actual Blizz comments recently? Seems like the blue tracker discusses every class in great detail but the rogue ones get "Thanks for the report!"
No. There haven't been any blue comments on rogue concerns at the official forums recently. I also think people read too much out of GCs "We owe rogues some DPS" comment, as the focus in class changes this patch seems to lie on classes that already do fine DPS in PvE.
It might very well be that the DPS they think we deserve won't come from buffing rogues but rather by bringing in line the strongest specs from other classes
I had wondered this same thing. I've been playing mutilate for a while (even back in BC) simply because I like the assassination tree. If HfB is so hosed in the next patch then I'll go combat for the first time. I wondered about going maces (assuming they get haste) or with the fist / dagger approach. If Maces get haste, then it very well may be maces are better for DPS, not sure.
I also had a question about the best build. I've been toying with Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (Combat - Sub) and Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (Combat - Assassination). I really am not sure which would be better DPS (regardless of weapons). I think it would also depend on the poisons being used. I haven't been following the combat discussion very closely so I'm not sure if WP or IP is better. If it's WP then this isn't even an issue, if they're about the same then the extra procs on IP would be very nice.
One more related note on the Combat / Assassination build: Would it turn out to be too energy starved with RS in the Sub tree or not?
EDIT to include the quote for context.
Ok a few things of wich not all of them i can say i figured out myself but ill relay them in this post.
One, Mace Weapon talent as it is, is NOT underpowered comparatively to other weapon specs. There just are simply no good itemeized maces currently available. [Angry Dread] while similiar to [Calamity's Grasp] is not close in standard of dps, being only a 156 dps item comparitivly to a 171. Another note, is that no current OH maces are 1.50 or under. [Split Greathammer] being the best possible OH being 1.60. Not really ideal for combat haste or no haste.
(Remember the haste you stack on one item, effects another with different speeds just as much.).
Given a choice of ideal itemization come 3.1 no Haste added to Mace spec or not given equal dps for all weapon specs, i believe i would go maces honestly. Followed by Swords then Close Combat. If your able to obtain an equally good 2.50 or slower MH mace and a equally good *dps comparitive* 1.50 or faster OH mace i would deff go maces.
On your combat question though regarding poisons. I think even with the new PPM mechanics the DPS still goes down to the 15/51/5 build, and although I understand your thinking with the way Imp Poisons works. Unless you can modify it to be 100% bonus buff or close to that #(90% Proc chance on a 2.70 item) I feel duel wound will come out ahead. I say iI feel because I haven't been able to do enough testing to verify one way or the other.
The whole thing with going 18/51/2 was that poison damage (pre PPM and Shiv nerf) using shiv/fast weapons was able to outscale DPS lost by Sinister Strike. I don't think the new PPM mechanics will drastically change the way you talent and make you go 20/51. I will on the other hand do my best to test some numbers directly related to spec, and see if using 20/51 going for imp Instant poisons out DPS's standard 15/51/5 build using GC/webbed combo over a 12 minute time period. Although i think the loss from Relentless Strikes might be quite alot.
Also note on Maces with the recent change to Sunder/Expose Armor, Mace spec becomes much more valuable as it stands already
With the current PTR mechanics (see this and the following posts in the Combat Ratings thread), the value of ArPen has hardly changed at all: after minor and major armor debuffs, boss armor is ~7900 armor in live (13083 - 5 x 785 - 1260), and ~8100 (10645 x (1 - 20%) x (1 - 5%)) on the PTR, and ArPen still works multiplicative (1 - ArPen%) based on those values.
This is somewhat irritating, since simply making armor debuffs stack additively (i.e. (1 - 20% - 5% - ArPen%) instead of ((1 - 20%) x (1 - 5%) x (1 - ArPen%)) would increase ArPen's relative value by about 35%, turning it into a competitive stat for physical DPS again (which presumably was Blizzard's intention).
Last edited by Herb : 04/11/09 at 12:11 PM.
Reason: hopefully for more clarity
Meaning with expected raid debuffs on boss you ignore 35% of his armor comparatively to the 20% the rest of the raid gets.
[...]
Also while i am at it talking directly about the new way Sunders/Expose will work with the raid. Am I in the wrong thinking that this also means the now Moderately Good/Great trinket [Grim Toll] becomes substaintally better tha it already is?
Some comments on armor penetration: If I read your post correctly, you assume that armor penetration stacks additively. It's my understanding that this isn't the case when it comes to the Mace Specialization talent. The reason for this is that armor penetration is calculated using the mob's acting armor and not its base armor. So when you ignore up to 15% of your target's armor, you ignore up to 15% of your target's armor as it is after Sunder Armor and similar debuffs have been applied. This, in part, is why armor penetration rating as a stat and talents like Mace Specialization are considered weaker than most of their counterparts in terms of increasing dps.
This, in turn, works differently with talents like Serrated Blades, which enables you to ignore a static amout of your target's armor based on your level.
However, my source on the armor penetration mechanics is this, which is written to clearify how armor penetration rating benefits hunters. The basic principles of calculating its effect should be applicable across classes, though, but please correct me if it isn't valid to apply these mechanics to calculating rogue dps.
It might very well be that the DPS they think we deserve won't come from buffing rogues but rather by bringing in line the strongest specs from other classes
I'd say being able to pull 1200-1500 more dps from combat on PTR is a pretty big buff. Whether they tone it down a notch or not, remains to be seen.
I'd say being able to pull 1200-1500 more dps from combat on PTR is a pretty big buff. Whether they tone it down a notch or not, remains to be seen.
Remember that there are a bunch of bugs with Assassination still though, so I don't think it's quite such a huge margin. No mutilate glyph, no HFB glyph, improved poisons not working, etc..
Once they can get all of this actually fixed, we can accurately gauge the DPS difference between the two specs.
Remember that there are a bunch of bugs with Assassination still though, so I don't think it's quite such a huge margin. No mutilate glyph, no HFB glyph, improved poisons not working, etc..
Once they can get all of this actually fixed, we can accurately gauge the DPS difference between the two specs.
You misread what I posted and the post I was replying to. I wasn't comparing Combat DPS on PTR to Mutilate DPS. Arnan was implying that they may not even buff rogue dps and just nerf other classes.
If you have been on the PTR and done any of the Patchwerk tests or the Raid Boss Testing you would see that at least for now, rogue dps (Combat anyways) has gained a pretty significant amount of DPS. They may nerf combat, they will probably buff mutilate (read: Fix HFB and Imp Poisons) or do nothing at all. That all remains to be seen in the coming weeks.
I'm currently reaching 2.8k DPS with Twilight Mist + Omen of Ruin wound/deadly on my weps attacking the heroic target dummy, just some food for thought. I don't have the best current in game gear.
Some comments on armor penetration: If I read your post correctly, you assume that armor penetration stacks additively. It's my understanding that this isn't the case when it comes to the Mace Specialization talent. The reason for this is that armor penetration is calculated using the mob's acting armor and not its base armor. So when you ignore up to 15% of your target's armor, you ignore up to 15% of your target's armor as it is after Sunder Armor and similar debuffs have been applied. This, in part, is why armor penetration rating as a stat and talents like Mace Specialization are considered weaker than most of their counterparts in terms of increasing dps.
Ok you are right in my giddiness to want better ARP I guess I misread the talent a bit. As it stands in the game Expose and presumably sunder now takes off a base 20% Armor (not rating) and combo points just add time. Compared to the Old which started at 30 seconds regardless and then increased armor reduced per combo point. I believe it was the 20% that threw me off, but for confirmation here are 2 shots one of old and one of new.
So to reiterate my previous post. This doesn't change the fact that Mace Spec is Currently just as good as any other weapon spec it just doesn't have itemization to help it out ATM. It does mean my theorycrafting on how it stacks with Expose/Sunder is off as well as that of the trinket. I will edit out of the first post.
03/03/09, 1:43 PM
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